Replacing Eaton Autoshift with a Mack 10 or 13 speed in 01 Vision

[snowman_w900]

24 minutes ago, Maxidyne said:

Simple economics- A 10 year old truck is generally worth less on the market than an engine rebuild or major modification= It's cheaper to buy another truck!

No it's not. I run an older (1999) Kenworth, Cat powered.  I can literally overhaul it for a fraction of what the truck is worth at current market value.  6.5 mph consistently,  simple to work on and I can gets parts at nearly any Caterpillar dealership nation wide.

Truck has over 2.1 million going strong and will outlast most any new truck many times over. Figure a 20 year old truck has paid for itself several times over in 2.1 million miles.

Sorry my friend,  but your assessment of simple economics is off by a longshot in my particular scenario. 

Edited November 18, 2019 by snowman_w900

[Maxidyne]

Looking at the auction results, while KWs have good resale that's a $20k truck at best. Cat parts ain't cheap, and if you figure in the cost of your labor the rebuild probably costs you $20k at least. So maybe should have sold it and bought a Mack that gets better MPG...

[JoeH]

A 20k rebuild is a lot cheaper than a 180k truck.  And at 2.1 million miles, he's doing something right on maintenance. The headache of a lemon after a truck that reliable isn't fun.  If snowman is still making good money on his '99 and his stress levels are low and pride is high in an "older" truck (we just bought an '88 to add to our fleet) then let him be.

Per 100k miles, going from a 6.5mpg truck to a 7.5 mpg truck will save you 2,000 gallons of fuel. (15,380g to 13,330g per 100k miles)

Savings are what? $6-7k per 100k miles? Certainly worth considering, that'd be $60-70k per million miles.  If you bought the truck new, you're running about 100k miles per year.  

If you spend your "fuel savings" on a new truck you won't be saving money, you'll just be giving the savings to the bank. And a new truck is gonna cost more than $7k per year. And by the time you get it paid off, Maxidyne will be yelling at you that your truck is old, and you need a new one that gets even better fuel mileage!!

The reality is, a well maintained/cared for paid off truck makes the most sense. Metal does fatigue, the truck won't last forever, but forever hasn't come calling yet on this truck.

[JoeH]

To pay off a new truck just on 1mpg fuel savings, he would have to log almost 3 million miles. (Assuming $7k savings per 100k miles, and 200k truck purchase price, which I picked roughly guessing price + interest) (and assuming fuel prices stay constant over the 3million mile period)

To my thinking, he's in the right truck, especially factoring in how many rebuilds during the 3 million miles to pay off the truck?

[Mack Technician]

Tummy is full...…...

[Mack Technician]

I don't agree to the thinking you can list "Corporations" into the primary consumer of new trucks. We run some very old metal and this is a Fortune 500 company. If your in the stock market these old beasts are likely pumping cash into your 401K. I'll take you for a tour of our Gems...…….

This old girl has a face for radio.....1991...the thumbs up is to celebrate!

2004......

 

2003.....

 

1997..... Teamster can mercilessly insult this baby all she wants, no defense....

 

Anything a corporation considers none-production will be depreciated and re-depreciated and eventually fully dilapidated. I have more pre-tier three including the road tractors, but I'm running out of space fast. As long as we can keep them street legal, and they serve a viable function, they won't be removed from service. 

[snowman_w900]

1 hour ago, Maxidyne said:

Looking at the auction results, while KWs have good resale that's a $20k truck at best. Cat parts ain't cheap, and if you figure in the cost of your labor the rebuild probably costs you $20k at least. So maybe should have sold it and bought a Mack that gets better MPG...

Auction results do not reflect the retail market prices,  and specs mean alot.

Look up a 2000 (11/99 build date ELD exempt) W900L,  3406E 550/1850, RTLO20918B, Eaton 402 3:55, 86" studio bunk, owner operator spec VIT interior,  286 wb truck in good to excellent condition and you'll find that the 20k number you reference is less than half of what one in nice shape will not only list at, it will bring it. 40K to 60k

 

Also, 6.5 is pulling a pressurized tanker with an empty weight of 43,000lbs or lowboy hauling machinery with an empty weight around 47,000. That's average mpg figured on loaded 1 way, empty the other.

[Maxidyne]

You can fantasize all you want about what Billy Big Rigger will pay for a long hood with a yellow engine, but auctions give the best public measure of a trucks worth, which tends to be 10-20% of new price for a 10 or more year old truck. As for MPG, if you put on 100k or more miles on a year you need 8 MPG to be competitive now, look at the 9 MPG new Mack of Jamie Hagen that Mack featured on their website- the fuel savings alone are damn near making the payments! As for old trucks being cheaper, only if you've got a good one and run low miles. The big companies have people that spend all day looking at the costs and doing data analytics, and while they may keep some old trucks around for yard and short haul work, they buy new trucks for the long haul and mission critical work. Sorry, that's the financial realities of trucking.

[snowman_w900]

2 hours ago, Maxidyne said:

You can fantasize all you want about what Billy Big Rigger will pay for a long hood with a yellow engine, but auctions give the best public measure of a trucks worth, which tends to be 10-20% of new price for a 10 or more year old truck. As for MPG, if you put on 100k or more miles on a year you need 8 MPG to be competitive now, look at the 9 MPG new Mack of Jamie Hagen that Mack featured on their website- the fuel savings alone are damn near making the payments! As for old trucks being cheaper, only if you've got a good one and run low miles. The big companies have people that spend all day looking at the costs and doing data analytics, and while they may keep some old trucks around for yard and short haul work, they buy new trucks for the long haul and mission critical work. Sorry, that's the financial realities of trucking.

Are you saying that a 1 man operation is to do business EXACTLY  the same way a large corporation does? Kind of a broad statement ain't it? 

Most auction trucks are trucks people get rid of because majority of them are:

Bank repos, trucks with cosmetic or mechanical issues,  short sales, wholesale buyers/ dealers who buy and sell trying to gain large profits. 

 

Those trucks normally have unknown history on maintenance and repairs. I'll pay retail price all day long for a well maintained older or newer truck with records to prove the upkeep. 

As far as the Billy Big Rigger comment, lol....  that's just another way of saying you're jealous of someone. I'm betting your old, retired and a diehard union guy with absolutely no first hand experience as an owner operator.

Edited November 19, 2019 by snowman_w900

[tjc transport]

1 hour ago, snowman_w900 said:

 

 

 I'm betting your old, retired and a diehard union guy with absolutely no first hand experience as an owner operator.

close.

old retired diehard union girl with absolutely no first hand experience as an owner operator.

[snowman_w900]

1 hour ago, tjc transport said:

close.

old retired diehard union girl with absolutely no first hand experience as an owner operator.

Ohhhh...well that explains it. Shes a "Teamster grrl" huh?

Perhaps I can give her a ride in my Billy Big Rigger KW and change her mind, show her the way things work in the real world. 

[keg1]

I'm running a 2016 mack cxu 612 doing ltl freight rarely have over 20000 in the box and avg 6 mpg. the first truck i owned a 1969 r model pulling a dump grossing 75000 to 80000 or more and avg 5 mpg. not much improvement in all those years. maybe running all flat land you might get better but running in the hills that about the best i can do.

[Maxidyne]

21 hours ago, snowman_w900 said:

Ohhhh...well that explains it. Shes a "Teamster grrl" huh?

Perhaps I can give her a ride in my Billy Big Rigger KW and change her mind, show her the way things work in the real world. 

Anyone stuck in a W900 for 20 years has my sympathies, After a day in an old KW conventional I was happy to go back to my Freightliner cabover. The W900 wasn't a bad truck for a 60s design, but it suffered from low volume maker Paccar's lack of access to a wind tunnel and the equipment to form compound curvature panels. Mack, GM, and Ford among others had access to better development and manufacturing tools and by the 70s all had better cabs than the Paccar conventionals. Heck, even the KW cabover had better ergonomics and probably aerodynamics than their conventional. Too bad you didn't go with a Mack, besides a better cab you'd probably get a full MPG better and another thousand pounds of payload, which would have paid for a new truck by now. 

 

[tjc transport]

our 22 year old kenworth W900 gets 7-8 mpg regularly puling the paver and rollers around. unless of course it has the 70,000 milling machine on the deck.

i have yet to see anyone with a truck made in the past 10 years that can match the fuel mileage of the W900 with the C-15 cat and 18 speed.

and that W900 is just as comfortable as any Mack i ever drove. 

actually it is a better ride, since it has air ride suspension. 

 

Edited November 20, 2019 by tjc transport

[OldRedMack]

On 11/18/2019 at 10:00 PM, Mack Technician said:

I don't agree to the thinking you can list "Corporations" into the primary consumer of new trucks. We run some very old metal and this is a Fortune 500 company. If your in the stock market these old beasts are likely pumping cash into your 401K. I'll take you for a tour of our Gems...…….

This old girl has a face for radio.....1991...the thumbs up is to celebrate!

2004......

 

2003.....

 

1997..... Teamster can mercilessly insult this baby all she wants, no defense....

 

Anything a corporation considers none-production will be depreciated and re-depreciated and eventually fully dilapidated. I have more pre-tier three including the road tractors, but I'm running out of space fast. As long as we can keep them street legal, and they serve a viable function, they won't be removed from service. 

Who is the dump bed manufacturer on that 97 international? Figure this thread has already gone off the rails.

[Mack Technician]

15 minutes ago, OldRedMack said:

Who is the dump bed manufacturer on that 97 international? Figure this thread has already gone off the rails.

Yup, total train wreck.

www.rtrmfg.com

A fuzz outside Oshkosh is Pickett, WI. Spitting distance from Oshkosh Truck Corp.

 

[OldRedMack]

Thank you.

[snowman_w900]

3 hours ago, Maxidyne said:

Anyone stuck in a W900 for 20 years has my sympathies, After a day in an old KW conventional I was happy to go back to my Freightliner cabover. The W900 wasn't a bad truck for a 60s design, but it suffered from low volume maker Paccar's lack of access to a wind tunnel and the equipment to form compound curvature panels. Mack, GM, and Ford among others had access to better development and manufacturing tools and by the 70s all had better cabs than the Paccar conventionals. Heck, even the KW cabover had better ergonomics and probably aerodynamics than their conventional. Too bad you didn't go with a Mack, besides a better cab you'd probably get a full MPG better and another thousand pounds of payload, which would have paid for a new truck by now. 

 

SOLD!

no you cant buy it @maxidyne, cause its SOLD!!

[Quickfarms]

That's a 19 year old truck, not worth swapping major components around. Once a highway truck is over 10 years old it's not worth enough to justify major repairs or modifications.

You must think every company and every segment of the trucking industry is the same.

For a large over the road company that only has steering wheel holders this may be true. Between the cheap/ light spec and poor drivers the truck is lucky to last 10 years.

Auction prices are not a function of truck worth. I have looked at a lot of auction trucks that have serious issues or need major repairs. Even the complete ones have issues due to lack of maintenance.

The only reason there are so many newer trucks on the road in California is CARB

[Mack Technician]

Step back TGrrl, let me handle this...

Ok, once again!....

Auctions set the value of ALL used trucks....in the same way....houses sold on the courthouse steps set the value of ALL local real estate. 

[Maxidyne]

Sorry Mack Tech, you aren't doin' that well at economics.

Back during the recession when a high percentage of home sales were foreclosures auctions did in fact set the market. Coming out of that private capital funds and REITs bought up huge blocks of homes and have thus created a wholesale market for homes. 

In trucking over 80% of new truck sales and leases are made to fleets with 5 or more trucks. The resale of those trucks is sometimes even agreed to before they're even delivered- Daimler is (in)famous for that. A few lease companies retail their own used trucks because they're truck dealers too and those trucks are often good deals. But most go to the dealer only wholesale auctions where they often go for ridiculously low prices- The private sector fleets don't care because they're getting a tax break for that depreciation, which in many cases they've already taken. The public auctions you guys cite often see only the odd decade or old truck, but they do not set the market.

The long nose KWs and Petes are pretty much a fetish item, a few years back some of the fleets tried them to attract drivers and get better resale but the MPG hit they took due to horrible aerodynamics and too big an engine cost more than they saved on resale. So a few of these long nose "boutique" trucks show up on the used truck lots and sit there for a year or three waiting for a "Billy Big Rigger" to come along... But that odd sale does not make a market.

[Mack Technician]

10 hours ago, Maxidyne said:

Sorry Mack Tech, you aren't doin' that well at economics.

Back during the recession when a high percentage of home sales were foreclosures auctions did in fact set the market. Coming out of that private capital funds and REITs bought up huge blocks of homes and have thus created a wholesale market for homes. 

In trucking over 80% of new truck sales and leases are made to fleets with 5 or more trucks. The resale of those trucks is sometimes even agreed to before they're even delivered- Daimler is (in)famous for that. A few lease companies retail their own used trucks because they're truck dealers too and those trucks are often good deals. But most go to the dealer only wholesale auctions where they often go for ridiculously low prices- The private sector fleets don't care because they're getting a tax break for that depreciation, which in many cases they've already taken. The public auctions you guys cite often see only the odd decade or old truck, but they do not set the market.

The long nose KWs and Petes are pretty much a fetish item, a few years back some of the fleets tried them to attract drivers and get better resale but the MPG hit they took due to horrible aerodynamics and too big an engine cost more than they saved on resale. So a few of these long nose "boutique" trucks show up on the used truck lots and sit there for a year or three waiting for a "Billy Big Rigger" to come along... But that odd sale does not make a market.

OOOOH Dear Teamster Grrl!! I may not have gotten an A in economics, but I got an A+ in Psychology. You my dearie are, as I previously Identified you, a pathological antagonist. I agreed with you and you disagreed with my agreeability and corrected me by repeating what I told you in the first place which already agreed with what you previously said as though you yourself authored it.   

 

Teamsterr Girl said "Back during the recession when a high percentage of home sales were foreclosures auctions did in fact set the market."  "

Mack Technician said "houses sold on the courthouse steps set the value of all local real estate"

Teamsterr Girl said "auctions give the best public measure of a trucks worth, which tends to be 10-20% of new price for a 10 or more year old truck."

Mack Technician said "Auctions set the value of all used trucks."

Teamsterr Girl then said "Sorry Mack Tech, you aren't doin' that well at economics."

 

When you COULD have said...…. "Well, I'm glad my schooling hasn't fallen COMPLETELY upon deaf ears. Thank you for stepping up to the higher calling of sound reason Mack Tech."

 

Which would still be obnoxious, but...…. would then mean you'd have had to, even sarcastically, agree to my statement......which is physiologically impossible for you. You cannot because you see antagonism as your greatest form of intellectual self-expression...…meanwhile driving the world immediately surrounding you insane and the Benevolent League of BMT Patriarchs (AKA- Cool old truckers with awesome toys) to want to stone you in the town square.

 

Your time for transformation to a social-able, positive, non-antagonistic, contributor is ticking away. You are, as you yourself said, "an old fart" and farts make but a ~poof~ and gone. Change your ways. A day's coming, I hope it doesn't, when you'll run out of ideas for new Monikers and have to use idiotic names like "Ol'Minnesota Farts" or "Grandma Cranky's CH ". This might be falling on deaf ears, but I want to be known as the person who "tried".       

 

 

Edited November 22, 2019 by Mack Technician

[ivanuke]

I just picked up an 06 CV713 with an eaton autoshift, I got it from a salvage yard but its definitely fixable. I will start to tear into it and to the electronics and see just how much would be involved to make the swap. I may ditch the autoshift myself if its not to my liking.

[Mack Technician]

Snapped a pic of more old iron. Our 2000 Pete. Its up before dawn everyday hauling 98K. Moving a 200+ load woodyard we purchased from a mill closure. This one was actually scheduled to be Dutch auctioned onsite last week to our private haulers, but the company won the wood bid. They pulled it off the auction and put it back into service again. 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Mack Technician

[Maxidyne]

4 hours ago, Mack Technician said:

OOOOH Dear Teamster Grrl!! I may not have gotten an A in economics, but I got an A+ in Psychology. You my dearie are, as I previously Identified you, a pathological antagonist. I agreed with you and you disagreed with my agreeability and corrected me by repeating what I told you in the first place which already agreed with what you previously said as though you yourself authored it.   

 

Teamsterr Girl said "Back during the recession when a high percentage of home sales were foreclosures auctions did in fact set the market."  "

Mack Technician said "houses sold on the courthouse steps set the value of all local real estate"

Teamsterr Girl said "auctions give the best public measure of a trucks worth, which tends to be 10-20% of new price for a 10 or more year old truck."

Mack Technician said "Auctions set the value of all used trucks."

Teamsterr Girl then said "Sorry Mack Tech, you aren't doin' that well at economics."

 

When you COULD have said...…. "Well, I'm glad my schooling hasn't fallen COMPLETELY upon deaf ears. Thank you for stepping up to the higher calling of sound reason Mack Tech."

 

Which would still be obnoxious, but...…. would then mean you'd have had to, even sarcastically, agree to my statement......which is physiologically impossible for you. You cannot because you see antagonism as your greatest form of intellectual self-expression...…meanwhile driving the world immediately surrounding you insane and the Benevolent League of BMT Patriarchs (AKA- Cool old truckers with awesome toys) to want to stone you in the town square.

Sorry, thought you were being cynical. And while auctions set the bottom of the market, retail sales and in some cases market manipulation set the top. I remember back around 2000-2008 when real estate scammers were inflating the sales prices of houses with sham sales and fraudulent appraisals. Something similar but less criminal goes on in the market for used pickups in my rural areas, with few dealers and little competition they're selling 50,000 miles pickups for what I can buy a new one for.

 

Your time for transformation to a social-able, positive, non-antagonistic, contributor is ticking away. You are, as you yourself said, "an old fart" and farts make but a ~poof~ and gone. Change your ways. A day's coming, I hope it doesn't, when you'll run out of ideas for new Monikers and have to use idiotic names like "Ol'Minnesota Farts" or "Grandma Cranky's CH ". This might be falling on deaf ears, but I want to be known as the person who "tried".       

Seems like a lot of times we argue for the sake of arguing here. While I staunchly believe that a new truck makes sense if you're going to run it 24 hours a day all over the country, If you're running local and have some slow time to do repairs a used truck makes more sense. While good 80s and 90s trucks are getting hard to find, the 2006 and earlier Macks are the best ever built and make a lot of sense. Back before I retired I looked into turning one of the Postal Service MR cabovers into a dump truck for congested urban work, together with a skid steer I'd have had a heck of a dirt moving company for work in tight spaces. And while I ride a 2013 and drive a 2015 for my "daily drivers", I just finished a down to the frame rebuild on an '82 BMW motorcycle just because it's a great bike that deserves to be preserved.