Mack trans vs. Eaton Trans

[Hook n ladder 1]

Hey guys just wondering your opinion on the difference or preference between the Mack T300 series (13 speed) vs. an Eaton (13 speed).  Ive always driven Eaton-Fuller manuals and never a Mack manual trans. 

 

thanks

[alex g]

We need Mr.Wild to give his opinion on this one

[Nobody454]

i found the mack version much tighter and harder to drive, just took some getting used to i guess. I'm back to an Eaton now in the KW

[R.E.D]

33 minutes ago, Nobody454 said:

i found the mack version much tighter and harder to drive, just took some getting used to i guess. I'm back to an Eaton now in the KW

That's due to the Mack being a triple countershaft design which makes it more robust and therefore a little stiffer to shift .Eaton only has two countershafts.

Also mack trans have a bit more overdrive, giving it a bit more road speed compared to Eaton or lower rpm at desired speed .

 

[BGarofalo]

I am a die hard Mack guy but transmissions are definitely a weak point in Mack’s catalog.  Seems like Mack transmissions need about 2x the amount of service and repairs over the life of the trans vs Eaton.  That being said, I run all Mack transmissions and love them. 

[Mack Technician]

Fuller is reliable, cheap and universally available. If you want a good, generic, standard issue, truck transmission, perfect pick. For as petite as the interior of the transmission is they hold up well. We get more mainshaft twists on Fuller than Mack when out in the woods. 

Mack is tougher & more expensive to repair and run. It had synchro issues in the T200..T300 improved the synchro.  Fuller synchros fail too, but are cheaper. Mack gives you more case windows and V-spacing to take power off the trans...heart shape makes two separate zones for driving power backwards and good for neutralizing and PTO speed variables. Triple shaft aluminum case makes it light so it can be big and still compete for equal payload against a steel double countershaft model. 

[1965]

Main deal now, they don’t make maxi-torque anymore.

[Mack Technician]

Sad day really. T3 wasn't without it's situational/operational advantages and toward the end I like what they did to improve it (even stealing Fullers clutch mesh design). It'll work out. Old school guys have enough T's to last till waaaaay past retirement and the whipper snappers, who can't shift a manual, will find their intellectual crutch in the M-Drive.  

Edited June 18, 2020 by Mack Technician

[1965]

24 minutes ago, Mack Technician said:

Sad day really. T3 wasn't without it's situational/operational advantages and toward the end I like what they did to improve it (even stealing Fullers clutch mesh design). It'll work out. Old school guys have enough T's to last till waaaaay past retirement and the whipper snappers, who can't shift an manual, will find their intellectual crutch in the M-Drive.  

Definitely sad, I really like them. They have to be shifted correctly.

[Hook n ladder 1]

Thanks for the info guys.

[brettj3876]

On 6/18/2020 at 9:52 AM, Mack Technician said:

Fuller is reliable, cheap and universally available. If you want a good, generic, standard issue, truck transmission, perfect pick. For as petite as the interior of the transmission is they hold up well. We get more mainshaft twists on Fuller than Mack when out in the woods. 

Mack is tougher & more expensive to repair and run. It had synchro issues in the T200..T300 improved the synchro.  Fuller synchros fail too, but are cheaper. Mack gives you more case windows and V-spacing to take power off the trans...heart shape makes two separate zones for driving power backwards and good for neutralizing and PTO speed variables. Triple shaft aluminum case makes it light so it can be big and still compete for equal payload against a steel double countershaft model. 

Every now and then going from High to low range in t2180 will go BANG. Not every time tho. Someone's been in the back box before. Still holding together but she's LOUD. The old school double over in the 93 is quieter LOL

[david wild]

On 6/17/2020 at 6:54 PM, R.E.D said:

That's due to the Mack being a triple countershaft design which makes it more robust and therefore a little stiffer to shift .Eaton only has two countershafts.

Also mack trans have a bit more overdrive, giving it a bit more road speed compared to Eaton or lower rpm at desired speed .

 

Robust ? Stiffer ? More overdrive ? .73 .74 over  you can tell the difference between .01 over  ?  you can buy a brand new Fuller from LKQ for less than the average repair of your beloved Mack 18 and still have a pig, I really like the multi speeds in reverse but the my 8LL has a lolol in reverse and a higher speed in low side, compares to my Mack, but the Fuller is so much user friendly,  and quieter  and I'll bet that a Mack with a Fuller gets better fuel mileage, it takes a huge amount of power to turn the Mack trans, put one on the floor and spin it by hand and then spin a Fuller ??  that's $$ up the pipe.

[R.E.D]

10 hours ago, david wild said:

Robust ? Stiffer ? More overdrive ? .73 .74 over  you can tell the difference between .01 over  ?  you can buy a brand new Fuller from LKQ for less than the average repair of your beloved Mack 18 and still have a pig, I really like the multi speeds in reverse but the my 8LL has a lolol in reverse and a higher speed in low side, compares to my Mack, but the Fuller is so much user friendly,  and quieter  and I'll bet that a Mack with a Fuller gets better fuel mileage, it takes a huge amount of power to turn the Mack trans, put one on the floor and spin it by hand and then spin a Fuller ??  that's $$ up the pipe.

Agreed..all the things you say are true , yet I only stated the differences..and never said I loved it.i have swapped over to Eaton in the past  for ease of use and maintenance and because drivers brake then trying to shift then like eatons.but in the truck I drive , I keep my t310m for it serves me best for my application.

[Maxidyne]

I'll vote for Mack, but the issue is moot now as most new trucks are coming with automatics.

[fjh]

On 6/20/2020 at 7:01 PM, david wild said:

Robust ? Stiffer ? More overdrive ? .73 .74 over  you can tell the difference between .01 over  ?  you can buy a brand new Fuller from LKQ for less than the average repair of your beloved Mack 18 and still have a pig, I really like the multi speeds in reverse but the my 8LL has a lolol in reverse and a higher speed in low side, compares to my Mack, but the Fuller is so much user friendly,  and quieter  and I'll bet that a Mack with a Fuller gets better fuel mileage, it takes a huge amount of power to turn the Mack trans, put one on the floor and spin it by hand and then spin a Fuller ??  that's $$ up the pipe.

Fuller would be my pick for all of the reasons above the main one being cost of repair! The Volvo people are pushing the m drive and want all real transmissions Mack fuller or otherwise, out of the picture! So they a gouging on the parts end to make it not worth rebuilding or repairing any thing real Mack Or fuller fuller is far cheaper on the repair side as they. We’re the dominant trans for years!

[kt_Engineer]

On 6/20/2020 at 10:01 PM, david wild said:

Robust ? Stiffer ? More overdrive ? .73 .74 over  you can tell the difference between .01 over  ?  you can buy a brand new Fuller from LKQ for less than the average repair of your beloved Mack 18 and still have a pig, I really like the multi speeds in reverse but the my 8LL has a lolol in reverse and a higher speed in low side, compares to my Mack, but the Fuller is so much user friendly,  and quieter  and I'll bet that a Mack with a Fuller gets better fuel mileage, it takes a huge amount of power to turn the Mack trans, put one on the floor and spin it by hand and then spin a Fuller ??  that's $$ up the pipe.

Most of T300's have a 0.71:1 Over-Drive. Only T310/T310M/T310MLR & T310ME21 have 0.73:1 over-drive. I do agree it might not make much of a difference when compared to 0.74:1.

Eaton in a typical year in early 2000's made close 125,000-150,000 manual transmission per year. Mack T300 in best years made 16,000-19,000 trans/year. Obviously Eaton has economies of scale and parts/repair will be  cheaper.

RTO14908LL 

Forward 1st gear ratio: 19.58:1 ; Reverse Ratios: 15.22:1; 14.56:1; 9.85:1; 2.89:1;

Mack T310MLR

Forward 1st gear ratio: 27.31:1; Reverse Ratios: 23.96:1; 12.22:1; 6.54:1; 4.67:1; 3.37:1; 2.40:1

 

Fuller does not get better mileage compared to Mack. The triple counter-shaft allows the main-shaft gears to be freely floating supported by countershaft gear mesh. Fuller twin-counter-shafts require the main-shaft gears properly supported/pressed/splined onto the main-shaft. While Mack triple counter-shaft design allows narrower face-width gears as load is uniformly distributed between 3 counter-shafts, Fuller needs much wider gears. For this reason Eaton rotional moment of inertia will be higher than T300 and takes more power to turn compared to T300 transmission. Speaking in Fuel economy terms using Fuller will be $$ down the pipe.

[david wild]

I do not believe that the Mack takes less HP to turn, I have turned them both on the floor and there is no way the Mack turned easier, are you using the lolol in your start out comparison ? I admit the Fuller has higher start out numbers, lucky for us we use the AT1202 one of which you see in my post going out to Seattle that I picked up and yes I have put them in the Macks too, we even had a RD with a Allison and a 4 speed aux, the Pete we brought in has 4.33 my CH has 4.42 the Pete will not back as slow as the Mack but in lolol it pretty low but the cure will be the aux trans which gives you better gearing for off road, you can use the low side and use every gear, the Mack you are stuck in the low gear and yes I know every one does not install aux trans but maybe they should look into it, I will stick by the my assertion that the Mack is way more costly to run and require way more care to keep running.

[Mack Technician]

Apples and oranges concerning efficiency. Run a thin synthetic in one and mineral 80W-90 (or 50) in the other and you have your winner. Mack has more rotational fly weight for sure. Increased mass.

Fuller floats their bearings and Mack preloads crush on all 6 shafts, that’s why Mack feels tighter. 

[david wild]

All I know you let the clutch out in neutral and the RPMs will drop and you will feel and hear the engine pickup the load even if you use the neutral switch it will drag down for a second or two  

[kt_Engineer]

On 6/24/2020 at 1:02 PM, david wild said:

I do not believe that the Mack takes less HP to turn, I have turned them both on the floor and there is no way the Mack turned easier, are you using the lolol in your start out comparison ? I admit the Fuller has higher start out numbers, lucky for us we use the AT1202 one of which you see in my post going out to Seattle that I picked up and yes I have put them in the Macks too, we even had a RD with a Allison and a 4 speed aux, the Pete we brought in has 4.33 my CH has 4.42 the Pete will not back as slow as the Mack but in lolol it pretty low but the cure will be the aux trans which gives you better gearing for off road, you can use the low side and use every gear, the Mack you are stuck in the low gear and yes I know every one does not install aux trans but maybe they should look into it, I will stick by the my assertion that the Mack is way more costly to run and require way more care to keep running.

You need to turn 8LL input shaft 19.5 turns to see 1 turn on output shaft while T310MLR input shaft will need to be turned 27.31 turns to see 1 turn on output shaft. If you did put it in Lo-Lo gear obviously T310MLR would feel much harder to turn that doesn't mean rotational moment of inertia is higher than Eaton's.

If you are putting a aux. box behind your trans that's another $5k-10k additional cost. Repair cost of range section of T300 should be around $4k. Isn't it cheaper in long run even if you had to repair it twice. T300 synchronizer has been beefed up but got a bad reputation by the time this was done. Even with bad synchronizer's they didn't go out until 350k-450k miles. To break-even with spec you are mentioning it would take over Million miles.

Allison 4500 costs around $13k+ and add aux. box to it another $5k-$10k increased cost. Torque converter transmissions suck on fuel economy compared to manuals or Automated manual transmissions. Forget about breaking even or being less expensive option.

Edited July 1, 2020 by kt_Engineer

[david wild]

Your living in utopia, I can't get out of a Mack garage for under 5 grand to wipe my ass, if I could rebuild my own trans I would,  every Mack trans in our yard or that has been through our yard  has  repairs involving removal of the trans and breaking the boxes open, something that hardly happens with the Fullers, yes the Fullers fail but the Mack puts you through hell then shits the bed. we are not in the general freight or dump dump truck business, any day if you need a education come out and ride with us you won't think the same when you go home, I deal with this every day and in our type of operation they are not the best and yes the fullers will howl and whine but when they fail I can replace with a brand new trans with warranty and ride on Mack has a book full of reasons why they won't warranty a failed Mack trans.

[steeler]

I'm a die hard Mack guy, but if you aren't talking about looks of off road, or a rail truck, then Eaton is the way to go. 

I can repair the common issues with Eaton (jumping out of gear/synchro) much cheaper than the common synchro repair on the T300. Not to mention I think they are easier to shift, but I'm a tech not a driver.

 

 

[Macktech20]

On 6/17/2020 at 5:20 PM, Nobody454 said:

i found the mack version much tighter and harder to drive, just took some getting used to i guess. I'm back to an Eaton now in the KW

Mack made a few different models of Transmissions their TM 309 Transmissions were very difficult to shift just because of how close the gears were but just a standard 2180 transmission in my opinion shifts almost as good as a Fuller but that's just my opinion.

[Vegartx]

On 6/20/2020 at 9:01 PM, david wild said:

Robust ? Stiffer ? More overdrive ? .73 .74 over  you can tell the difference between .01 over  ?  you can buy a brand new Fuller from LKQ for less than the average repair of your beloved Mack 18 and still have a pig, I really like the multi speeds in reverse but the my 8LL has a lolol in reverse and a higher speed in low side, compares to my Mack, but the Fuller is so much user friendly,  and quieter  and I'll bet that a Mack with a Fuller gets better fuel mileage, it takes a huge amount of power to turn the Mack trans, put one on the floor and spin it by hand and then spin a Fuller ??  that's $$ up the pipe.

Do you have the t310mlr transmission? (See Picture)

If so, what rpms do you upshift at?

[storkmack]

7 hours ago, Vegartx said:

Do you have the t310mlr transmission? (See Picture)

If so, what rpms do you upshift at?

What ever works.