DPF Retrofit

[Red Horse]

Change of pace question.  My small town has a  10 yr old Public Safety Building-police/fire station.  It has a 400KW standby generator (Generac) that is powered by a 14L Deere. Unfortunately when they built this building they put the genset right next to  the building.  So  now 10 years later a "problem" has been identified as when the unit goes into its 20min weekly test cycle, the exhaust gets sucked into  the various HVAC inlets creating an "unhealthy atmosphere" in the building-which worst case might be staffed by 4 or 5 people.

The solution? We are being asked to  approve an expenditure  of $57,000 to install a DPF filter.  I view this as just adding another headache and maintenance routine to the unit and at a price  that probably exceeds the first cost of the unit 10 years ago.

My suggestions have been;

- Put a stack on the unit to elevate exhaust discharge-Answer...."That would cost $100,000"

-Move unit 50' away from building-Answer.."That would  cost $100,000"

-Move test cycle to off hours when building is not occupied...Answer..."That would bother the neighbors with the noise"

-Shut HVAC units off during 20 min test cycle...."Answer what about when we have an extended power outage?-we went 5 days about 8 years ago"....True -I've lived here 30 years and we did have an unbelieveable ice storm one year and it took five days to restore power. I guess answer to that is "TS"!

Thoughts on $57G for a DPF -

[j hancock]

Can't give any info on your retrofit DPF questions in particular but I will muddy the waters.

Geesh, for $100 large you could have the exhaust plumbed to discharge next to Rt. 495!

[Quickfarms]

Questions

 

Do they really need 400 kw?

 

“That’s pretty big for what sounds like a small building”

 

Did they actually get bids for the stack and moving?

 

Did they look into modifying the hvac system? Can they add dampeners to eliminate the fresh air intake to the building when the generator is running and only heat or coil return air just like in there vehicle.

 

Is there documentation to prove this problem actually happens or is someone just thinking it is happening?

 

Which way is your prevailing winds going?

 

 

[alex g]

Sounds like they've already made up there minds. Government building near me was scheduled to be torn down in the near future. They replaced the roof and tore building down about 5 years later. When asked they said money was already allocated to do so. Some things just don't make sense and never will

[Red Horse]

11 hours ago, Quickfarms said:

Questions

 

Do they really need 400 kw?

 

“That’s pretty big for what sounds like a small building”

 

Did they actually get bids for the stack and moving?

 

Did they look into modifying the hvac system? Can they add dampeners to eliminate the fresh air intake to the building when the generator is running and only heat or coil return air just like in there vehicle.

 

Is there documentation to prove this problem actually happens or is someone just thinking it is happening?

 

Which way is your prevailing winds going?

 

 

QF-good questions-  Fire side of building is 4 doors/8 vehicles.  Call FD- only 2 FT employees.  PD side has max 3 FT Mon-Fri.  Building was designed with dispatch center and then two years later we joined a central dispatch organization that handles  about 5 towns.  Genset for sure is overkill.

My bet is no hard estimates-other than Generac coming up with the quote for a PDF.  Your question on dampeners above my skillsets but I hear you- have a call out to friend.

Thx for response.  Unit is 10 years old- best analogy I can make -you have a hot 60's 327 or 289 Hi Po and you say.."Think I'll improve this with latest pollution equipment!"

[70mackMB]

On 6/19/2020 at 9:16 AM, Red Horse said:

Put a stack on the unit to elevate exhaust discharge-Answer...."That would cost $100,000"

Duel 10 inch chrome stacks up the side of the building wouldn't cost that much!    .....Hippy

[1965]

I wouldn’t think that 11yr old engine would like a dpf? Would think it be a lot more heat. Looks like problems 

[Mack Technician]

A Non-mandatory, aftermarket, Emissions add on!!!!!!!!!!!

 

The cycle time won’t be long enough to start passive regeneration during test cycles. You’ll be damned for doing it. Double that test phase time and do it all under full generator load to build exhaust temp. Maybe you could put a massive walk-in electric grill next to it and have a community 40 minute cookout once a week?

Stop them at any cost, they don’t know what they’re getting into. 

Edited June 23, 2020 by Mack Technician

[Red Horse]

3 hours ago, 70mackMB said:

Duel 10 inch chrome stacks up the side of the building wouldn't cost that much!    .....Hippy

Hippy-you priced anything out at I-80 Lately?😎

[Red Horse]

2 hours ago, 1965 said:

I wouldn’t think that 11yr old engine would like a dpf? Would think it be a lot more heat. Looks like problems 

like I said--putting emissions stuff on a 60's 327 or 289 HiPerf.😎

 

1 hour ago, Mack Technician said:

A Non-mandatory, aftermarket, Emissions add on!!!!!!!!!!!

The cycle time won’t be long enough to start passive regeneration during test cycles. You’ll be damned for doing it. Double that test phase time and do it all under full generator load to build exhaust temp. Maybe you could put a massive walk-in electric grill next to it and have a community 40 minute cookout once a week?

Stop them at any cost, they don’t know what they’re getting into. 

MT Thx for that.  All of this shit put together by one guy who by the way has stated..a 19,500 GVW F 550 is rated at 9750 front axle, 9750 rear!

[j hancock]

Soooo, you are dealing with an idiot, .....   non-smart person.  Are they related to the town administrator?

[Mack Technician]

Real sad thing is Mr.F550 probably thinks exhaust that’s gone through a DPF has no scent. 

[blackdog2]

The state made some of the contractor's put on after burner's on older machine's on state job's ....Are they using high sulfur or low or cut with Kerosene air filter ? air intake restricted they should be able to plumb ex-hast differently is it a engineered system go back the installer the town sign off on it originally I dealt with North East generator for years and they did a lot of multi story building's in CT NY.  

[Joseph Moody Jr]

For fire safely should a standby generator be X amount feet from any building  

[Quickfarms]

For fire safely should a standby generator be X amount feet from any building  

Depending on how it is designed

There are many emergency generators that are installed next to or inside of buildings

On the big office buildings the generators typically are in the basement and exhaust through the first floor side of the building near the loading dock

This whole idea hinges on this being an actual documented issue and not something that is a perceived issue.

[Red Horse]

7 hours ago, j hancock said:

Soooo, you are dealing with an idiot, .....   non-smart person.  Are they related to the town administrator?

Jim-you are far too suspicious!  

[Red Horse]

5 hours ago, Mack Technician said:

Real sad thing is Mr.F550 probably thinks exhaust that’s gone through a DPF has no scent. 

Thanks-  I had that feeling but you have confirmed

 

2 hours ago, Quickfarms said:

 

Depending on how it is designed

There are many emergency generators that are installed next to or inside of buildings

On the big office buildings the generators typically are in the basement and exhaust through the first floor side of the building near the loading dock

This whole idea hinges on this being an actual documented issue and not something that is a perceived issue.

 

No  clue-I'm sure  though it does smell when its  running

[1965]

Worked in diesel shop back in late 80’s through the late 90’s, always told that diesel smoke wasn’t what was bad for you it’s the gas burners. Maybe ought to sue them, HA HA. All the witnesses are probably dead. HA HA, Amazing how things change. 

[1958 F.W.D.]

As a Code Enforcement Official that has done permitting for multiple gen sets, my first question is- Where in the hell was your code official when this thing was installed, and secondly, where was the installer's head as the design and install were occurring?

1. First thing I always require- site plans, signed and sealed by a Design Professional (Architect or PE licensed in that state.) The plans must show where the set is to be placed in accordance with acceptable parameters set by the Manufacturer.

2. Second thing I require- a copy of the Manufacturer's installation manual (model-specific.) Must clearly show me where the set can be placed in accordance with windows, air intakes or other avenues where exhaust can enter the building. 

Honestly I would be demanding someone's head on a platter (leaning very heaving towards the installer, they should know better......) but being 10 years later, you might be screwed. I would at the very least call the installer and discuss it with them- they may very well tell you to go bark at the moon, but if you start stomping your feet and advise them you may contact the manufacturer to tell them that the installer screwed the pooch big time, they may want to discuss it. Maybe have the municipal solicitor make the call. See if they will meet you halfway for the cost of relocating the pad and re-wiring it.

Oh, and since they screwed the pooch on the placement, have you had the wiring and transfer switch inspected by a third-party electrical underwriter? I know if I were you I would be making that call first thing Monday morning. 

[Red Horse]

17 hours ago, 1958 F.W.D. said:

As a Code Enforcement Official that has done permitting for multiple gen sets, my first question is- Where in the hell was your code official when this thing was installed, and secondly, where was the installer's head as the design and install were occurring?

1. First thing I always require- site plans, signed and sealed by a Design Professional (Architect or PE licensed in that state.) The plans must show where the set is to be placed in accordance with acceptable parameters set by the Manufacturer.

2. Second thing I require- a copy of the Manufacturer's installation manual (model-specific.) Must clearly show me where the set can be placed in accordance with windows, air intakes or other avenues where exhaust can enter the building. 

Honestly I would be demanding someone's head on a platter (leaning very heaving towards the installer, they should know better......) but being 10 years later, you might be screwed. I would at the very least call the installer and discuss it with them- they may very well tell you to go bark at the moon, but if you start stomping your feet and advise them you may contact the manufacturer to tell them that the installer screwed the pooch big time, they may want to discuss it. Maybe have the municipal solicitor make the call. See if they will meet you halfway for the cost of relocating the pad and re-wiring it.

Oh, and since they screwed the pooch on the placement, have you had the wiring and transfer switch inspected by a third-party electrical underwriter? I know if I were you I would be making that call first thing Monday morning. 

Thx-Keep in mind-i'm just a dumb taxpayer who fortunately can afford to pay my taxes. But the town has enough people-in particular seniors-who are pinched.  To some people 57K is chump change.  They don't give a shit.

[RowdyRebel]

8 minutes ago, Red Horse said:

Thx-Keep in mind-i'm just a dumb taxpayer who fortunately can afford to pay my taxes. But the town has enough people-in particular seniors-who are pinched.  To some people 57K is chump change.  They don't give a shit.

...and even less shits are given when it's "other people's money".

[1958 F.W.D.]

19 hours ago, Red Horse said:

Thx-Keep in mind-i'm just a dumb taxpayer who fortunately can afford to pay my taxes. But the town has enough people-in particular seniors-who are pinched.  To some people 57K is chump change.  They don't give a shit.

You should start stomping your feet asking the questions that I have asked and present the points that I presented. 

[Maxidyne]

Come up with a solution and write a proposal for a state, federal, business, or non-profit grant. I just had a six figure state and federal grant to rebuild our town's water system approved, we could never have afforded to do it ourselves.

[Red Horse]

11 hours ago, 1958 F.W.D. said:

You should start stomping your feet asking the questions that I have asked and present the points that I presented. 

Well tonight was our town mtg where we got to vote on warrant articles.  I sent our town administrator an email today with cc's to selectmen.and in summary advised the 57G for a DPF would not correct the problem, result in poorer performance of the generator, and in the end have the effected employees asking.."what is that smell"?

I indicated there were several other things that could be done to correct the problem but at far less cost than was proposed and would be glad to share my thoughts .  He quickly responded that 6g of the  57 g was for a feasibility/study/analysis and 51 g was to perform the actual work. But he would be asking for other alternatives "that could be considered".  

I also acknowledged that rather than give a 60 second comment that you are allowed to make  at town meeting (mind you we are in COVID mode!) I would not object to  the approval given fact standard procedure in this town has been to push overinflated proposals but then use the surplus in the next year to fund other bullshit.  Not right but the game always played.

Well some woman who resigned (out of frustration) from the advisory committee that screens proposed articles asked.."why couldn't the generator be moved" to get it away from building and air intakes.   The Administrator answers question and says .."Too expensive"  .  I know others have been told it would cost 100g to move.  I should have jumped in at that point and asked him what that number was but i'm interested in winning the war not the current battle. Bottom line, it has to  go about 70' across a parking lot.  So I figure saw cut 18" wide trench, 3' deep and an 8' x 15' x 8" floating pad.  Under 3 yds of concrete.  Floating slab works as genset is typical  Generac skid.  Plus I'm 99% sure power lead from Genset feeds adjacent distribution panel that feeds all proper building circuits.  So trench contains the new power feed to that panel as well as what ever control wiring is needed.  The physical move?  Big hydraulic crane sits in middle and its one pick and swing.  10g should be more than enough.

Stay tuned.  Typical small town bullshit.

[storkmack]

I was on the county board here for six years.  One of the sillier things to come across was a $25000 quote to make the doors coming into the public safety building ada compliant.  Now the under sheriff that presented the proposal was adamant that this was the only option.   So it gets approved at committee, moves on to the full board where I present a $1500 option.   Motion for $25000 is voted down, and the $1500 option approved.   The under sheriff asked how I figured it out, real easy I called a commercial door company, duh!  And then we spent $1.1mil on a 3600 sq ft animal control building.  Tried my best to scale that down.   Was told that I hated animals over that one.  Love animals, hate gov’t employees who believe they are entitled to only the best, at the taxpayers expense.