Lining up a Superliner rescue.

[Hans Remmers]

Sometimes its good to leave the GPS off and just learn your way around still.  I missed my turn with the lowboy early in the summer of 2020 and had to find a place to turn around.  Otherwise I never would've driven past this lonely dog that hasn't moved since at least 2012 based on Google maps.  Last registered in '07 at a closed cider mill.  Planning on heading to Jersey this weekend to get the paperwork.

[alex g]

Great find good luck with it and post some pics when you get it

[mrsmackpaul]

Good luck with it all and keep us posted

 

Paul

[Vladislav]

Yup, as said above. We keep fingers crossed for you to complete the steal deal.

[mowerman]

like wow man....but it doesnt look like its been sitting anywhere near that long.good luck,,,,nice lookin ride...bob

[Hans Remmers]

Went down to Jersey and took care of the humdrum payment and paperwork crap this afternoon so its a done deal.  Got a photo circa 1996 back when she was pretty and the storage tanks were installed at the cider mill.  Funny thing, 2 weeks ago when I drove past to see if this truck was still there on my way home from Gerhart's, the tanks had just been removed and were Tennessee bound.  That was the first I ever found people around there to set this deal in motion.

[Hans Remmers]

Went down to the truck yesterday afternoon.  Spent 2 hours on it before dark.  Minus the time getting bothered by the locals.  An elderly gentleman walking his dogs asked if it was going to run after sitting there forever.  2 minutes later a neighbor drove up barking "who said you could work on this truck here!"  It only took a minute to tell him the name of the cider mill owner that I'd bought it from to calm him down.  Not 2 minutes later the town supervisor even drove up asking what was going on.

It was actually a good feeling to know that after working on a truck 5 minutes that many locals showed concern to making sure I wasn't stealing parts or the whole truck.  They were glad to see it was leaving after being a community landmark for so long.

Found the right fuel cap center vent had rotted away allowing moisture in the tank.  Had to hammer the cap loose and whatever was inside that used to be fuel wasn't pretty.  Half tank of...  Something.  Twisted and crushed crossover valve trying to shut it.  Cut the crossover tube and drained it until something resembling fuel came out.  Kinked that over to stop flow.

Dropped in a pair of new batteries and cab relay powered up immediately.  Checked air intake for debris and turbo for freeness.  Popped off primary to see it was still full but certainly needed to be replaced.  Tried to get greedy and leave the secondary alone but that bit me in the ass.  Never understood the superliner secondary location.  Put a pressure gauge on the oil line cut when the gauge panel was stolen.

Cranked for 20 seconds with shutoff pulled to pump some oil.  Starter cranks fast but sounds sickly.  Got it to fire a little on ether before seeing the fuel running out of the rotten secondary.  Broke the handle completely off my filter wrench, got drenched with fuel trying to break filter free from underneath with a screwdriver driven through.  Ended up taking filter base completely off and spent 15 minutes chiseling the filter off on the ground.

After reassembly it only took a couple more minutes to get it running, but found pump plunger hanging up.  Had a gusher from the short return tube around front of pump.  Cobbed up with vent tube from hydraulic tank.  Running consistently with horrible governor response but only a minor misfire.  10 minutes running time I kinked off the cut heater control air line on the stolen heater box, built full air pressure.  Oil psi 60-80.

As the rpms climbed to 1800 and stayed I tried to work it back down until I found return line from head leaking.  Fuel shutoff lever no longer responding.  I removed supply line directly from injection pump to kill it.  Aired flat left steer tire half way with gladhand hose.  Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to see if the clutch is stuck.

This morning I'll head back down with the lowboy and hopefully I can keep it down near an idle to load it after I put new return line on it.

So maybe I'll start a new post.  I've had good luck with a stuck plunger on an ambac after using biofuel and sitting,  It freed up well.  How about this Robert Bosch?  Will a sticky plunger keep the shutoff lever from operating?  Once I get it home maybe I'll need some advice on freeing the plunger on a Robert Bosch.

[mrsmackpaul]

Your certainly heading in the right direction and doubt there is much wrong with the pump

Is it linkage back to the accelerator pedal or cable, any I have worked in Australia are linkage but have no idea about the U.S. 

I have had mine stick wide open but I reckon you would be all over a sticking linkage 

Good luck and keep us posted

Lucky to have some history in the old photo 

 

Paul

[Hans Remmers]

1 hour ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Your certainly heading in the right direction and doubt there is much wrong with the pump

Is it linkage back to the accelerator pedal or cable, any I have worked in Australia are linkage but have no idea about the U.S. 

I have had mine stick wide open but I reckon you would be all over a sticking linkage 

Good luck and keep us posted

Lucky to have some history in the old photo 

 

Paul

No, its definitely inside the governor of the pump.  I'm working the levers directly on the pump.  As I said I've had the same basic problem with an ambac pump that sat after running biofuel.  All I had to do with that was remove the governor cover and manually operate the plunger while flushing the fuel side out with brake cleaner.  The Robert bosch is quite a bit different so I'm not sure if I can do the same as easily.

[Vladislav]

I had been to that issue just a couple months back. Was bringing to life a DM of 1987. Also had idea to try getting it road worthy where it was parked to drive home by its own. Had to get rid of such plan after observed the truck in person and towed it. Time showed out it was right way to go.

The first thing I noted disliking was short move of the governor lever where the starting control cable attaches. Tried to set the tension of the cable but still was doubtful on the correctness. After priming with fresh fuel and a few dosen of either I got the engine fired up and running with a few missings. My next step was a try to stop it by the lever and no luck with. I did what you did and had it stopped.

After spinning the facts in my mind for a bit I figured there must be a plunger stuck not the rack itself. Or multiple plungers. So I released the injection lines at the pump sections and asked a helper to crank the engine with a starter. Fuel appeared from 4 fittings but #1 and #4 didn't show evidence of pressure in the lines.

I opened the top cover on the governor and could get to some bracket that was attached to something that looked like an end of the rack. Tried to pry and hit with no luck. I had an old spare Robert Bosch pump on a shelf which I looked over and figured not easy to get inside of. Decided I could direct access a plunger if I remove the delivery valve holder (top fitting on the pump) and the valve. I have done it in the past to set the injection point and could see the plunger top looking into the hole. I needed a multi edged socket to get the holders off which I didn't have. Tried it barbarian way with long arm pliers but only had edges smashed, the fittings were set damn tight. I investigated the net and found out there were only 2 sizes of sockets for Bosch pumps and trucks used larger one. Bosch # was 0 986 611 274 which I crossed to CT-N724 some aftermarket tool. I got lucky purchasing the latter locally. It must have 34 edges and the smaller socket (for cars) has 32 (or 33?) Ok, washed clearly the surround of the delivery valve housing (the pump was still on the engine), drove it off and removed. Put in a pre-washed can I prepped for. Took the spring and than the valve stem and its seat off with tweezers (don't touch with fingers) and put into the same can and closed it. If you would happen to do the job use separate can for each valve not mixing parts of different sections. Sprayed a bit of diesel fuel into the hole using syringe. After I took a small brass stick (nearly 5mm OD and 50mm long), put it into the hole and managed its end onto the top of the plunger. Hit the stick end with a small hammer (washed its head prior for not dropping dirf off it). Could move the plunger down a little bit but not much. Put more diesel on it and asked a helper to turn the crank shaft by a socket tool until I saw the plunger went back up (and stuck there again).

I tried to hit the plunger top more but couldn't get it free and had almost no luck with the other stuck one. So we removed the pump from the engine and put in a vise. After the supply pump was removed and I looked into the hole to see the cam shaft I found out its cams were made different than a common cam should look. I expected the cam to be high along nearly 1/4 of the shaft circle (like an engine cam shaft looks and those in injection pumps I saw before). But the one in Robert Bosch pump was made having 3/4 of its circle high and only 1/4 low where a plunger is able to go down. So turned out I tried to move the plunger when it was supported by the cam on the shaft. If I knew that I suppose I could make it free with the pump still on the engine. Ok, with the pump in a vise I hitted/elevated the plunger 3-4 times spilling diesel onto and got it travelling free. But that was the #4. The #1 didn't go even by the hammer. So I had to go harder way. First I approached it on the spare pump and seeing the desingn got back to the patient. The matter is the housing the delivery valve housing attaches to is a plunger barrel itself. It is fitted into the main pump aluminium housing and clamped by two nuts. Each barrel has 2 nuts so you see 6 pairs of clamping nuts at the top of the pump. If you remove the nuts you cam turn the barrel housing in the pump body and over the plunger at the same time. Turning it over and prying up at the same time you can pull it off. The plunger would stay in place than. But the issue is turning the barrel you change the point the plunger cuts off the supply hole in the barrel what means the beginning of injection. So if you fit the barrel back different you would change the stroke supply amount of the spoken section. In my case I didn't have plans for seriouse use of the truck in the distant future and could bring the pump to a shop for calibration later. So I scratched a mark both on the barrel housing side and the pump aluminium housing, removed the nuts and turned the barrel in the housing hitting it to the "ear" the mounting stud goes through. It first turned together with the plunger but after I both turned and pryed up with a screwdriver the plunger got its own movement. Adding diesel drops and hits upon the plunger top with the brass stick I finally got it free. Pressed down the barrel housing back to its place and aligned my marks. Having a bit of experience with calibrating pumps I suppose I wouldn't need to put the particular one on a bench if going to use the truck for a hobby after what I did to it. Everyday work is sure another story. But that second part of my tale is a really hard case. The truck was parked for no less than 5 or 6 years and as I could see it operated with no fuel filters at all (!!!) before got parked. So my guess you may be "lucky" following the 1st half of the story scenario.

Vlad

[Hans Remmers]

Thanks for the info Vlad.  I managed to get it loaded and back home.  I've since spent a couple hours attempting to flush out the pump but haven't had any luck.  It shows some throttle response yard driving with the brakes still heavily dragging.  No load it continues to have a tendency to climb to 1800rpm and stay there.  Fuel shutoff is still unresponsive.  I've been fighting fuel leakage at the banjo fitting where the head return attaches.  I can't figure out why its leaking exactly but there appears to be a helicoil in the pump where the banjo bolt threads in and judging by the paint on the pump it looks like it'd been overhauled shortly before being parked.  I'm not sure how I'd feel about sending this pump out right now if a butcher has already been in it.

[harrybarbon]

Hi Hans, please can you tell us what year is it, engine, gearbox and diffs are in your Superliner. I see spyders on the rear and buds up front! It looks pretty good, original and complete. Appears it has sat quietly without anybody attacking it over the years. What is the frame and cabin condition, much rust? Your luck was meant to direct you to your new -old Mack.

That kinda happened to me 3 years ago. I saw an add for an old Supeliner here in Aussie land, called the vendor and in short he said that it was pretty rough for what I was looking for, but he said I have a Valueliner been sitting for 2 years since he got it and 6 years before with the previous owner, got it on a machinery trade. He had no use for it. It had all that I could have wanted and similar to yours in appearance about 98% original. I had a Mack man check it out and he gave his tick of approval. We negotiated a fair price and after 6 months we took it home.

And there was a another surprise that the vendor and I discovered later. Unknown to the vendor, his Superliner was the 1st Superliner built in Australia and from memory it had the original motor in it. It was in a sad condition. He found out after he sold it to a collector, who will restore it to original.

Good luck and enjoy your Superliner.

[Hans Remmers]

1989 rw613.  e6-350 original not a maxidyne on the tag but maxidyne on the hood???  13 speed roadranger rto14613 appearing to be original equip, shift pattern on the dash and mack part # on tranny tag.  4.42 mack rears on 38k taperleaf.  Paint is poor, roof peeled, very minimal rust anywhere.  Scavengers did get to it at some point: stolen volt water oil gauge cluster, top dash panel where ashtray located, passenger seat and heater cover.  Will post some pics.

[Hans Remmers]

[Hans Remmers]

[Hans Remmers]

Last picture is whatever used to be fuel that I got it running on.  The worst rust of all is shown in the back of cab pic.  Found an inspection receipt from 2005 in the truck and its less than 700 miles from the current mileage.  All documents and tags I've found expired in '07

[Vladislav]

The condition seems very promising and that rust at the back panel is nothing, will go away just by paing prep work. E6-350 must be Econodyne I belive and 13 speed tranny proofs that. If it's a Maxidyne it would be EM6-300 coupled to 5,6,7 or 8 speed long steps gearbox (the most probably).

Although the look of the fuel doesn't promize happiness it sounds strange you've got any throttle reaction while yard driving. Stuck plunger means stuck rack what further means no other plunger's turning and no change of fuel supply to the injectors. So you may be having issue of another kind. I would try making that injection line test as I described. A 5 minutes matter and you will more food for thought on further investigation.

I'm glad you purchased the truck anyway. It has good chances to became a beauty (or a beast?) after getting some love. 

[85snowdog]

Congrats on the new to you Superliner.  It looks like its in good hands and going to live again . 

The Maxidyne emblem is interesting on your Econodyne .  I find it interesting because we have discussed on BMT some trucks having Maxidyne engines with Econodyne emblems . Treat your Maxidyne emblem like gold. The can not be found . 

About your pump , I'm sure you know this , but on the very slim chance you didn't . There is external return spring .  If this is off , the throttle will run up itself . Very fast . lol  .   Don't ask me how I know this 

[Hans Remmers]

Ok, so I no longer have any remnants of any robert bosch pumps to even dismantle.  I do however have a 1990 e6-350 ambac pump and I'm almost positive all the injector lines for it.  Has anybody swapped pump types?  Is the base timing the same?  Are the injectors even the same?  Maybe I should just bite the bullet and send this pump out but first I need to make sure the return fitting leak I'm fighting with isn't from the pump housing itself.  Like I said the housing has an obvious helicoil in it which really bugs me.

I never understood Mack jumping back and forth between ambac and robert bosch in from what I saw 1988-1990.  

[Hans Remmers]

Oh and I never understood the bosch pumps running the throttle shaft through the pump with the return springs on the back side attached to a menagerie of extra levers and extensions.

[harrybarbon]

Thank you Hans. Being 1989 and original it a 4 valve unit, if correct good motor. Your Superliner does look to be quite good considering it came from a NE cold / snow US state, especially little rust.

 

[Vladislav]

15 hours ago, Hans Remmers said:

Ok, so I no longer have any remnants of any robert bosch pumps to even dismantle.  I do however have a 1990 e6-350 ambac pump and I'm almost positive all the injector lines for it.  Has anybody swapped pump types?  Is the base timing the same?  Are the injectors even the same?  Maybe I should just bite the bullet and send this pump out but first I need to make sure the return fitting leak I'm fighting with isn't from the pump housing itself.  Like I said the housing has an obvious helicoil in it which really bugs me.

I never understood Mack jumping back and forth between ambac and robert bosch in from what I saw 1988-1990.  

The matter of the swap was discussed not long ago but no exact facts were stated as I remember. More questions. Speaking the helicoil I think bango bolt tights up with a cooper washer against the housing so a coil repair wouldn't be a way for a leak. If that's a taper thread fitting (and I remember there was at least one of those in the housing) it's another story. Anyway if the pump goes to (expensive) rebuild I would definitely get rid of all housing imperfections.

Mack could use two types of the pumps due to lack of supplys from one vendor involving another one. Or there might be another reason. To me it more seemed that pre-88 trucks had Ambac for the most cases and later production was equipped with Bosch. With some interference during 1987-1989 BTW there were also pumps made by third producent in 80's years. I'm not ready to say the brand right at the moment but one of such units lays on one of my shelves.

[Hans Remmers]

5 hours ago, Vladislav said:

The matter of the swap was discussed not long ago but no exact facts were stated as I remember. More questions. Speaking the helicoil I think bango bolt tights up with a cooper washer against the housing so a coil repair wouldn't be a way for a leak. If that's a taper thread fitting (and I remember there was at least one of those in the housing) it's another story. Anyway if the pump goes to (expensive) rebuild I would definitely get rid of all housing imperfections.

Mack could use two types of the pumps due to lack of supplys from one vendor involving another one. Or there might be another reason. To me it more seemed that pre-88 trucks had Ambac for the most cases and later production was equipped with Bosch. With some interference during 1987-1989 BTW there were also pumps made by third producent in 80's years. I'm not ready to say the brand right at the moment but one of such units lays on one of my shelves.

To the best of my recollection learning some things from an old mechanic my family had employed while in my early teens he told me the 3rd brand was UD?

I dug out my 1989 and 1990 tune up spec manuals and looked up available pump part numbers and configurations.  The different pumps used bosch and ambac nozzles as well to go with the pump respectively.  1989 had the option of bosch or ambac, 1990 only offered ambac.  Pump timing is 18 or 20 degrees depending on the brand of pump.

I've never gotten an exchange unit of a mack pump.  I've always gotten my same unit rebuilt or repaired.  I'll need to pressure test this pump to find the leak.  Its too hard to locate the leak with the engine running while having little to no rpm control.  It is a straight thread banjo bolt with copper washers.  The banjo fitting has 2 barbs that the plastic tubes attach to.  One going to the head and the other around front of the pump going to the check valve on the main return line.  This configuration must be designed to purge air from the top of the injection pump.

[Vladislav]

18 hours ago, Hans Remmers said:

To the best of my recollection learning some things from an old mechanic my family had employed while in my early teens he told me the 3rd brand was UD?

I dug out my 1989 and 1990 tune up spec manuals and looked up available pump part numbers and configurations.  The different pumps used bosch and ambac nozzles as well to go with the pump respectively.  1989 had the option of bosch or ambac, 1990 only offered ambac.  Pump timing is 18 or 20 degrees depending on the brand of pump.

I've never gotten an exchange unit of a mack pump.  I've always gotten my same unit rebuilt or repaired.  I'll need to pressure test this pump to find the leak.  Its too hard to locate the leak with the engine running while having little to no rpm control.  It is a straight thread banjo bolt with copper washers.  The banjo fitting has 2 barbs that the plastic tubes attach to.  One going to the head and the other around front of the pump going to the check valve on the main return line.  This configuration must be designed to purge air from the top of the injection pump.

Now it seems the time is to me asking questions. I have a E6-350 4V in my R-model, made in the end of 1988 (1989 model year) and Ambac pump. Couldn't you tell me the part # of the injector nozzles mentioned in those tune up manuals? My pump tag tells 300 PLM450385A with Mack part # ?13GB5168P14. There's also a mentioning of 18 degrees so your info makes sence.

Good way to check out leaks in the fuel supply system along with simple and efficient priming is use of electric fuel pump. I have a few taken off 90's years Mercedes cars which are handy to use because they have alu housing with 2 fittings (or just tubes) to put a rubber hose onto. Two terminals to attach wires and you connect them straight to a 12V battery. In many cases I just take an external battery to not hook up to the truck. Usually I use such pump for a test fit when I want to start up an engine which was out of operation for a long time. You can use hand prime as supposed to be done but it takes time and the prime pump may be bad or constant airing up may be present. What I do is just hook two hoses to the injection pump, one with electric pump put in series and the other one to the return fitting on the injection pump. Both hoses go into a jerrycan with diesel or even a plastic bottle. Last time when I dealt with that DM and found out the fuel filters messed up I didn't waste time and just put a car filter in series with the electric pump. When you power up the pump it brings fuel into the system in a matter of a few seconds with a raw of air bubbles coming into the can. Plastic bottle is even better for that reason since you can see all the air and dirt going from the injection. And if any leaky points get presence they show out immediately under positive pressure made by electric pump. I than make a try to crank the engine with the wires still on the battery and if it fires up successfully I that reconnect the fuel system to its normal setup.

If the fitting is a straight bolt with cooper washers the latters seal the banjo around its cyrcle so the threads of the hole get inside them. And if a heli coil is used and it's not tight it would leak to inside the banjo making no issue. Figuring other possible reasons I met cracks where those small tubes come from the banjo barrel. Probably due to bending force during inaccurate removing of hoses. A friend of mine fought air in the system of his Mercedes car and ended up swapping that "banjo spider". Sure the cooper washers should be new or cooked up red hot prior the installation.

If you have a good Ambac pump for the similar engine swap seems like reasonable solution. I dug up a couple of photos I made when removed pumps off two engines. The darker pic is E6-350 4V with Ambac and the brighter is EM6-300 4V after I took off a Robert Bosch unit on the DM. As you can see the engine side is the same. So more a matter of injection lines and other attachments.

[Hans Remmers]

4 hours ago, Vladislav said:

Now it seems the time is to me asking questions. I have a E6-350 4V in my R-model, made in the end of 1988 (1989 model year) and Ambac pump. Couldn't you tell me the part # of the injector nozzles mentioned in those tune up manuals? My pump tag tells 300 PLM450385A with Mack part # ?13GB5168P14. There's also a mentioning of 18 degrees so your info makes sence.

Good way to check out leaks in the fuel supply system along with simple and efficient priming is use of electric fuel pump. I have a few taken off 90's years Mercedes cars which are handy to use because they have alu housing with 2 fittings (or just tubes) to put a rubber hose onto. Two terminals to attach wires and you connect them straight to a 12V battery. In many cases I just take an external battery to not hook up to the truck. Usually I use such pump for a test fit when I want to start up an engine which was out of operation for a long time. You can use hand prime as supposed to be done but it takes time and the prime pump may be bad or constant airing up may be present. What I do is just hook two hoses to the injection pump, one with electric pump put in series and the other one to the return fitting on the injection pump. Both hoses go into a jerrycan with diesel or even a plastic bottle. Last time when I dealt with that DM and found out the fuel filters messed up I didn't waste time and just put a car filter in series with the electric pump. When you power up the pump it brings fuel into the system in a matter of a few seconds with a raw of air bubbles coming into the can. Plastic bottle is even better for that reason since you can see all the air and dirt going from the injection. And if any leaky points get presence they show out immediately under positive pressure made by electric pump. I than make a try to crank the engine with the wires still on the battery and if it fires up successfully I that reconnect the fuel system to its normal setup.

If the fitting is a straight bolt with cooper washers the latters seal the banjo around its cyrcle so the threads of the hole get inside them. And if a heli coil is used and it's not tight it would leak to inside the banjo making no issue. Figuring other possible reasons I met cracks where those small tubes come from the banjo barrel. Probably due to bending force during inaccurate removing of hoses. A friend of mine fought air in the system of his Mercedes car and ended up swapping that "banjo spider". Sure the cooper washers should be new or cooked up red hot prior the installation.

If you have a good Ambac pump for the similar engine swap seems like reasonable solution. I dug up a couple of photos I made when removed pumps off two engines. The darker pic is E6-350 4V with Ambac and the brighter is EM6-300 4V after I took off a Robert Bosch unit on the DM. As you can see the engine side is the same. So more a matter of injection lines and other attachments.

I found a cross reference for your number to the 313gc5168p18 that appears in the 1989 tune up manual.  Calling for injector assembly 736gb259p10, nozzle 114gc39p21 ambac number nbh 770405