The mighty DMM

[Mandrewoid]

4 hours ago, Vladislav said:

I don't like your idea of using those flat rings to fit Budd wheels onto Dayton hubs. My guess is they will crack really soon. You may use something like that when the distance between two points of the force applied (in your case between the spoke stud and Budd mounting stud) is short. Otherwise you've got really large banding torque in the part. I would go another way and find hubs to fit Budd wheels. Mack axles made a way they used both Dayton and Budd hub on a similar spindle so doesn't seem difficult to convert (from where I'm sitting). My DMM had stud piloted Budd hubs from the factory and I located 4 13.50 (or so) steel wheels to mount 445/65R22.5 super singles on and fit to the rears.

Speaking the differentials the cam type in the axles was an option and by my observations a seldom used one in that era. Usually interwheel diffs are of a common gear style. The interaxle unit is always (if Mack axles) of a cam style and distributes torque. It may be equipped with air operated complete lock down and wouldn't distribute anything when locked just forcing both axles spinning together. It was an option for the most of models but I doubt many DMM's left the factory without it.

Thanks for the info Vladislav.  But have you ever seen Budd style wheels with triples on the rear? What I'm looking for isn't a way to add a bolted wheel to a spoke hub, but actually a way to add a 3rd wheel on my rear axles. 445/65r22.5 singles on the back is not sufficient, I need more like 810/30r22.5 to have enough traction and flotation.  I don't see how a mounting plate inside a open center rim would be any different than the mounting face inside the budd rim itself, but it definitely would have to be at least the same thickness. I'll try and build a CAD model so you can see what I mean. 

[Vladislav]

8 hours ago, Mandrewoid said:

Thanks for the info Vladislav.  But have you ever seen Budd style wheels with triples on the rear? What I'm looking for isn't a way to add a bolted wheel to a spoke hub, but actually a way to add a 3rd wheel on my rear axles. 445/65r22.5 singles on the back is not sufficient, I need more like 810/30r22.5 to have enough traction and flotation.  I don't see how a mounting plate inside a open center rim would be any different than the mounting face inside the budd rim itself, but it definitely would have to be at least the same thickness. I'll try and build a CAD model so you can see what I mean. 

Ok, got what you meant. The difference between the plate you're going to fab and the Budd wheel center is the latter is dished. That makes it stronger for bending. Could be compensated by the material thickness indeed. And making third wheels it wouldn't be an issue on my mind since it would take only 1/3 of the load in theory (and I suppose no more than 1/2 in practice)

[Mandrewoid]

We're getting there. Here's the fabricated adapter plate, cold off the waterjet table.  I have not yet welded it onto the hub but you can clearly see what the plan is now. I also have spacer discs, 1/2" plate with the 10 bolt holes in them. I will machine one of the spacer plates to provide the hub piloting required, and then weld them all together. It will be quite a challenging weldment to get everything lined up right. 

[Vladislav]

On 5/5/2022 at 2:37 AM, Mandrewoid said:

We're getting there. Here's the fabricated adapter plate, cold off the waterjet table.  I have not yet welded it onto the hub but you can clearly see what the plan is now. I also have spacer discs, 1/2" plate with the 10 bolt holes in them. I will machine one of the spacer plates to provide the hub piloting required, and then weld them all together. It will be quite a challenging weldment to get everything lined up right. 

Ughh...  I can't imagine a few things. First, how are you going to acces the middle (2nd) wheel nuts to remove it when needed?

Second, you definitely should weld reinforcing ribs to the inside of that new plate to increase its bending stiffness. I'd put them off the center hole to the rim circle. The way the sun rays used to be painted by a kid. Six ribs at least, and with their outer ends welded to the wheel rim. And you definitely need to do that BEFORE you apply any welds attaching the adapter plate to the wheel.

Ok, my second thought - if I was going to make such the design my way would (probably) be cutting a center off another Budd wheel and weld IT into the 2nd wheel instead of your custom adapter plate. Actually making a wheel with two centers. It definitely would be much tougher than flat adapter you're going to use. But any way the original center of the 2nd wheel gets much higher stress with the 3rd wheel added in relation to its normal operation carrying load applied to the 2nd wheel only.

Your actual idea gives me a guess you are a "practice man" and prefere checking things made of metal. Would be interesting to learn how your custom setup work on a real truck. Anyway good luck on the project!

[Mandrewoid]

On 5/8/2022 at 4:39 AM, Vladislav said:

Ughh...  I can't imagine a few things. First, how are you going to acces the middle (2nd) wheel nuts to remove it when needed?

Second, you definitely should weld reinforcing ribs to the inside of that new plate to increase its bending stiffness. I'd put them off the center hole to the rim circle. The way the sun rays used to be painted by a kid. Six ribs at least, and with their outer ends welded to the wheel rim. And you definitely need to do that BEFORE you apply any welds attaching the adapter plate to the wheel.

Ok, my second thought - if I was going to make such the design my way would (probably) be cutting a center off another Budd wheel and weld IT into the 2nd wheel instead of your custom adapter plate. Actually making a wheel with two centers. It definitely would be much tougher than flat adapter you're going to use. But any way the original center of the 2nd wheel gets much higher stress with the 3rd wheel added in relation to its normal operation carrying load applied to the 2nd wheel only.

Your actual idea gives me a guess you are a "practice man" and prefere checking things made of metal. Would be interesting to learn how your custom setup work on a real truck. Anyway good luck on the project!

As always thank you for replying. The matieral the adapter plate is made of, is 1/2" (12.7mm)  I think you are forgetting my original wheels do not have any centers at all("Dayton style"), so there is no risk of tearing the center out of the second wheel. the six cutouts around the outside are how I will access the nuts and wedges to remove the other two wheels. I may have enough space to weld reinforcement to the inside of the center adapter, but according to my figuring it should be fine. Biggest concern is being able to fixate and weld it accurately in the center. Also the third wheel will be running at half pressure, so the tire will deform if I drive over an obstacle. 

[Vladislav]

21 hours ago, Mandrewoid said:

As always thank you for replying. The matieral the adapter plate is made of, is 1/2" (12.7mm)  I think you are forgetting my original wheels do not have any centers at all("Dayton style"), so there is no risk of tearing the center out of the second wheel. the six cutouts around the outside are how I will access the nuts and wedges to remove the other two wheels. I may have enough space to weld reinforcement to the inside of the center adapter, but according to my figuring it should be fine. Biggest concern is being able to fixate and weld it accurately in the center. Also the third wheel will be running at half pressure, so the tire will deform if I drive over an obstacle. 

If so the things seem easier. I sure didn't remember all specs of your truck (and not always remember everything about my ones). Seeing the stud holes in the adapter a thought of Budd wheels appeared on my mind automatically. Anyway I suggest a need in adding the ribs. But the style you have allows you to add them at any time. My guess is you will find out they are needed after a day or two of operation on a soft ground. But it's a guess only.

I wouldn't worry much on difficulty to center the adapter for weldng. If it's a bit loose in the rim I'd take a steel ruler or better a caliper and relate the distance from opposite stud holes to the rim edge to put the adaptor even. You may be Ok with about 1/16" (1-2mm) accuracy that way and I wouldn't worry with  1/8" (3mm) runout for speeds and applications you're forseeing. Lowered tire pressure is also on your side here. Put 6 setting weld spots at the outer side where it's easier to control the adapter position. Than flip the rim over and you're free for laying thick seams at the inner side where melted steel spills better catching both the rim wall and the adaptor being in a tight corner between them. Sure put weld at the opposite sectors, the way you tight lug nuts. If the day is long and amount of weld rods sufficient weld than may be done over the outside also.

[Mandrewoid]

Here are some progress photos. Centering and squaring the plate for welding was easier than I thought, and no additional wobble was incurred.  I am cutting some additional pieces for reinforcing the inside, as I agree it will put excessive stress on the edge of the center rim if too much weight is borne by the outside wheel. 

I also have to make a few small blocks on the surface of the flat adapter to "hub pilot" the outside wheel, as I don't think that I want to get into the complications of special lug nuts. In this photo, the third wheel is secured by  1" bolts. I am considering the possibility of purchasing knurled studs, does anyone know where I could get 40 26mm knurled studs?

[mowerman]

Well thanks for keeping us posted right now I sure don’t know where to get those studs you’ve got something there that most of us have never seen nice going on the progress though… bob

[JoeH]

On 5/28/2022 at 12:48 AM, Mandrewoid said:

Here are some progress photos. Centering and squaring the plate for welding was easier than I thought, and no additional wobble was incurred.  I am cutting some additional pieces for reinforcing the inside, as I agree it will put excessive stress on the edge of the center rim if too much weight is borne by the outside wheel. 

I also have to make a few small blocks on the surface of the flat adapter to "hub pilot" the outside wheel, as I don't think that I want to get into the complications of special lug nuts. In this photo, the third wheel is secured by  1" bolts. I am considering the possibility of purchasing knurled studs, does anyone know where I could get 40 26mm knurled studs?

I want to know how this monster is doing! How have your third wheel adapters been working? It's been a year and a half now!

I wish I saw this thread when it started! You can run 315/80-R22.5 on 9" wide rims as dualies, no reason you shouldn't be able to run 3 across!  They'll give you wider tires for more flotation.

[mowerman]

Forgot all about him good luck bud and yes updates please ????   There