235 Swap

[Full Floater]

Thanks fellas.

Well, although uneventful and nothing bad happened, I did what was suggested to not do and loosened (about 1 turn) the nuts for the 6 dogs, on the outside of the flywheel through the little access hole for them. With the engine off, I pushed the clutch pedal in and out a few times, then re-tightened the nuts.  To no avail.  Still acting the same way.  I was hoping that would free up a stuck intermediate plate.   I'm almost tempted to try it once more with the engine running but that may be a bad idea....

Yes, good thoughts on the pilot bearing.  It is brand new in this case and I really hope it didn't fail out of the box!

 

[Full Floater]

1 hour ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Now we know it is dissengaging, if only a bit I'm pretty sure the intermediate plate is binding as others have suggested

As to how to fix this Im not exactly sure without dropping the transmission 

I would try to slide the transmission back enough to work on with out pulling it out

Put some big bits of all thread in and to slide  the transmission back on

If your on gravel make up some rails for a big trolley jack to roll smoothly on

I have made a cradle up for the Mack transmission to sit in the top of the big trolley jack that works well

I have done these on gravel without rails or anything and it's a bit exciting at times trying to balance everything and slide it up in while laying underneath 

I make the rails up out of 2 inch angle iron maybe 1/4  thick or thicker

This is even handy on a concrete floor because it helps guide things along

Anyway good luck

 

Paul

 

Good tips on making up a trolley for it.   Same with using some all thread.

I think in this case I will use some 4x4 wood or steel tubing across the window sills, and remove the floor panel and sling around the front and back of the trans.  It was done this way on this truck before according to a previous owner.

I just don't have the material on hand to rig up a decent trolly, nor is there a place near by that sells heavy trans jacks.   I'd like to get started on the pulling of the trans asap if that's what ends up happening

[Joey Mack]

Forgive me if I didnt see this... But...  did you adjust the pedal free play to near zero, to see if it will release when you you push the pedal?  just to see if it will release..   Sorry bud...  I bet all of us would like to be there to see it first hand..  

[Full Floater]

1 minute ago, Joey Mack said:

Forgive me if I didnt see this... But...  did you adjust the pedal free play to near zero, to see if it will release when you you push the pedal?  just to see if it will release..   Sorry bud...  I bet all of us would like to be there to see it first hand..  

I have, yup.  At the moment its set up to spec with about 2'' of free travel on the pedal and 1/2'' between the TO bearing and clutch brake.  But I have gone to zero travel and to the extreme the other way as well to about 3'' or more.   Same symptoms.

I'm achieving this by turn the 5/8 bolt on the clutch adjuster but have also set the linkage to zero play to get as much pull on the clutch as possible.

[Full Floater]

The anti rattle springs.  Are they installed on all clutches.  the instruction in the clutch pack made them sound optional for some clutches.  I installed them on mine as that was my understanding on this particular clutch.

They were snug enough that one would think that would hold up an intermediate plate.   

I wonder if I should take them out.  I can see them at the right angle, I bet I can fish them out

 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Full Floater

[doubleclutchinweasel]

I wonder if you can back the internal adjustment of the clutch all the way “off” dust to see if the problem persists. Still sounds like something dragging internally. 

[Full Floater]

Just now, doubleclutchinweasel said:

I wonder if you can back the internal adjustment of the clutch all the way “off” dust to see if the problem persists. Still sounds like something dragging internally. 

Back it off as in turn counter clockwise and achieve zero free play in the peddle?   I can try again, although I have already.   

 

[Joey Mack]

do you have a picture of the anti-rattle springs?   For some reason, I dont remember what they are..  I have been losing knowledge lately..   

[mechohaulic]

55 minutes ago, Joey Mack said:

do you have a picture of the anti-rattle springs?   For some reason, I dont remember what they are..  I have been losing knowledge lately..   

not alone on that one Jojo . springs should be part of the clutch disc or the anti rattle springs refer to the wedges placed on clutch pressure plate hold down bolts. can't be the springs located on clutch brake housing ??? also remember it was stated fiber on clutch brake was worn on one side ; doesn't have alot to begin with add on the grease.

[mechohaulic]

a far out try would be to having truck on blocks /jacks or whatever securely safe;; place in gear with engine running start giving "jabs " to clutch pedal working it up and down. purpose would be to work intermediate plate in pressure / release while spinning.  long shot the spinning centrifugal force and weight will work the crooked dogs.

[mechohaulic]

far as pilot bearing = old seized will give problems . you installed a new one . if for some reason it fell out ::1-clutch would still work;2=partial fall out the trans wouldn't have gone in;;3= the flywheel was bad if bearing collar was worn to point of not holding a bearing, which you would have noticed installing bearing.  statement holding my attention is the "I had to tap plate in"  !!!

[Full Floater]

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/clutches-brakes/clutch-installation-kits/eaton-hd-manual-adjust-clutch-clmt1351.pdf

Here is a pathetic pic and install instruction of an Eaton anti rattle spring.  It came included in the clutch kit and they are a thin steel shim/spring stock that gets pressed in by hand, between the intermediate plate and flywheel.  They are snug but can be pulled out and pushed in by hand. There are 3 of them.  Im assuming its to reduce any rattle or vibration that the intermediate plate may develop.  

Ok so I have now determined that the problem is in fact the intermediate plate sticking, just as you guys figured.  I just discovered that there is 1 thru hole on the flywheel housing that allows visual access to the primary disk and flywheel side of the intermediate plate.  With the clutch pedal depressed, I can get a thin pry tool in there and pry back the plate away from the friction disk.  Viola! Its stiff and sometimes it will pry back and sometimes it wont.  I accomplished this with the dog nuts loosened off.  Since I was able to pry the intermediate plate back with a pry tool while the pedal is depressed, Im thinking nothing is installed backwards....just it's sticking.

Something of note, the old clutch and the clutch on the donor engine did NOT have anti rattle springs.   I installed them on this clutch as the instructions told me to.  I think this might have been the mistake.   I cannot get them out thru the pressure plate openings, as I thought I might be able to, unless I brake them apart somehow.  Im going to try that.  Im almost ready to take a die grinder or something to the spring in a spot or two to help collapse it and pull it out thru the pressure plate openings.

Good tip and jabbing the clutch in and out while the driveline is spinning in attempt to free it up.  I have been doing that quite a bit, along with sudden brake applications while the clutch is pressed in and only partly disengaging.  I have done a lot and the situation isnt' improving.  I even tried it with the dog nuts loosened a bit.   I can see part of the dogs thru the flexplate openings and they all look new-ish as I remembered them looking and none are cockeyed or anything.   So im pretty sure it's the anti rattle springs that I should have excluded.   I will make a solid attempt at removing them and we'll see how the clutch reacts.  If that fixes the problem without dropping the trans, you can imagine how happy i'll be! 

 

https://www.phoenixfriction.com/p-29245-crp-161c-5-anti-rattle-spring-for-14-in-spicer.aspx

 

Here is a proper pic of the anti rattle spring

 

.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Full Floater

[mrsmackpaul]

Yep, I think your onto it, I dont recall ever fitting these springs at all

Old brain I guess 

However after studying the instructions, I had to Google them as it didn't come up on the link 

I can definitely see this most likely is the issue 

I can't even begin to advise how to get them out as I don't ever recall fitting them in a spicer clutch kit

 

Paul 

[Joey Mack]

Paul, I dont remember those springs either....  I became more curious when he said he had to tap the pressure plate in place...  

[doubleclutchinweasel]

7 hours ago, Full Floater said:

https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/clutches-brakes/clutch-installation-kits/eaton-hd-manual-adjust-clutch-clmt1351.pdf

Here is a pathetic pic and install instruction of an Eaton anti rattle spring.  It came included in the clutch kit and they are a thin steel shim/spring stock that gets pressed in by hand, between the intermediate plate and flywheel.  They are snug but can be pulled out and pushed in by hand. There are 3 of them.  Im assuming its to reduce any rattle or vibration that the intermediate plate may develop.  

Ok so I have now determined that the problem is in fact the intermediate plate sticking, just as you guys figured.  I just discovered that there is 1 thru hole on the flywheel housing that allows visual access to the primary disk and flywheel side of the intermediate plate.  With the clutch pedal depressed, I can get a thin pry tool in there and pry back the plate away from the friction disk.  Viola! Its stiff and sometimes it will pry back and sometimes it wont.  I accomplished this with the dog nuts loosened off.  Since I was able to pry the intermediate plate back with a pry tool while the pedal is depressed, Im thinking nothing is installed backwards....just it's sticking.

Something of note, the old clutch and the clutch on the donor engine did NOT have anti rattle springs.   I installed them on this clutch as the instructions told me to.  I think this might have been the mistake.   I cannot get them out thru the pressure plate openings, as I thought I might be able to, unless I brake them apart somehow.  Im going to try that.  Im almost ready to take a die grinder or something to the spring in a spot or two to help collapse it and pull it out thru the pressure plate openings.

Good tip and jabbing the clutch in and out while the driveline is spinning in attempt to free it up.  I have been doing that quite a bit, along with sudden brake applications while the clutch is pressed in and only partly disengaging.  I have done a lot and the situation isnt' improving.  I even tried it with the dog nuts loosened a bit.   I can see part of the dogs thru the flexplate openings and they all look new-ish as I remembered them looking and none are cockeyed or anything.   So im pretty sure it's the anti rattle springs that I should have excluded.   I will make a solid attempt at removing them and we'll see how the clutch reacts.  If that fixes the problem without dropping the trans, you can imagine how happy i'll be! 

 

https://www.phoenixfriction.com/p-29245-crp-161c-5-anti-rattle-spring-for-14-in-spicer.aspx

 

Here is a proper pic of the anti rattle spring

 

.

I think you are all over this!

[Joey Mack]

I would rather hear the rattling, than deal with this current issue..  Besides... it will only rattle if you are holding the clutch down for any length of time, however,, I guess I never really noticed a rattling in the 'dog dish' type of clutch..  Git-r-done....!  Jojo

[mechohaulic]

now I remember the rattle springs!! THANKS FOR PICTURE thin pieces of steel which you would bend to fit between inter plate and flywheel. don't see how they would create present situation. I have installed and also left out on clutch projects.

[mechohaulic]

1 hour ago, Joey Mack said:

Paul, I dont remember those springs either....  I became more curious when he said he had to tap the pressure plate in place...  

the "had to tap in sentence " would make more sense with the anti springs there. the word tap to one could mean different to another.  back to another path on the recovery road ; one disc installed backward ? problem now could be with the adjustments moved around soo much , a simple issue may have been complicated.

[Full Floater]

3 minutes ago, mechohaulic said:

now I remember the rattle springs!! THANKS FOR PICTURE thin pieces of steel which you would bend to fit between inter plate and flywheel. don't see how they would create present situation. I have installed and also left out on clutch projects.

I will figure a way to get these ones out today, and will report back with the results.   I think they may be creating just enough added resistance to hold up that plate...seeing how I was able to pry it back with a pry tool when the clutch pedal was pressed

[Full Floater]

Just now, mechohaulic said:

the "had to tap in sentence " would make more sense with the anti springs there. the word tap to one could mean different to another.  back to another path on the recovery road ; one disc installed backward ? problem now could be with the adjustments moved around soo much , a simple issue may have been complicated.

Well, the anti rattle springs go in after the int. plate is installed.

[mechohaulic]

darn ;; your right install after. memory failure =blame old age . those are high tensel steel eye protection required. 

[mechohaulic]

the word =spring - challenged us ole people. pictured a coil type spring :   this is same as saying :I do in marriage🤣; you put it off long as you can !  but you will be pulling transmission  bet. guess no lottery tickets for you today 

[Full Floater]

BIG NEWS fellas!   I got it!  It was the damn anti rattle shims.

I managed (4hrs under the truck in the rain with all the picks and mini pry bars AND cutting torches in the arsenal); to get the pricks out.  Instantly had proper disengagement of the clutch without even checking for final clutch and free play adjustment.

Here's a pick of one of them.   

So for future reference.   Do not install these things even if they come with the clutch kits and the instructions say to install them.   Good side to this saga is, I learnt a lot about clutches and exactly how they work.  AND I didn't have to pull the transmission! 

So....what was happening was, these shims were preventing the inter. plate from moving as it should.  Must have been just the rear disk unlocking when pressing the clutch pedal to give me the partial disengagement 

Edited June 18, 2023 by Full Floater

[Joey Mack]

My Heart is Pounding after reading this...   That is AWESOME!!!  We all knew it was not your lack of knowledge,,, it was Eatons suggestion to do something odd..  Looking forward to a video of it going down the road, or at least around the yard...  

[doubleclutchinweasel]

Enjoy the rattle!!!