sask3500 Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Is there a reason why the cups need to be done on every injector change? Is it similar to the rule of always changing external fuel lines on a Bosch common rail fuel system? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518706 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeH Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Pretty sure they "crush" a little to seal. So you get one "crush" out of them. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark T Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 There's a lot of MP hate here 🙁 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518713 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd71106 Posted December 20, 2022 Author Share Posted December 20, 2022 The local Mack house here in Shreveport actually agreed to do the job. I was upfront with them and told them it’s an oil field truck and has been deleted. Those lease roads are extremely rough on trucks. I am in there every week buying parts, so they see me a lot. They’ve got the best prices in town on brake system, suspension parts, and batteries. Even before my discount. Anyway they quoted me $3400 for the 6 pack and $1700 labor, which I thought was fair. Only problem was the 2 week wait. The independent shop is actually $300 more, but the turnaround is only 2 to 3 days. Based on my past experience with the shop, that actually means one week. Lol. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518714 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 11 hours ago, Onyx610 said: Come on you guys, I know how much hate you have towards this engine (been through this how many of times?) but cups arnt bad. Done one done them all??? I seen how pampered these need to be assembled ! I also seen guys use the injectors over and fail 2 months later! Its hit and miss if you don't replace everything from what I seen! Onyx I Think For the most part the MP engines bottom end are a solid in design! The top Not so much! The Fragile and temperamental head and fuel system design spoils the pudding for me! If Joe were to take on doing these cups at his shop he wouldn't sleep at night wondering WHEN they will be back ! sure there's lots of work out there in this department however he has no dealer or boss to hide behind when things go sour! And sour is Easy to achieve with this set up! I have not tried this or heard of any one trying of re torqueing these injectors after a weeks running or so how ever I think it may aid in prolonging how long they would last! That said a bunch more messing around! Joey got a good gig there just working on a sure fire gray engine that you can for the most part count on not to come back on you! untill The Big V opens there Eyes and Redesign that fuel system nothing going to convince me of anything different! Guess it comes down to my insecurity and not had the opportunity to really bond with the product in some respects! I bonded to the gray stuff knew its weaknesses and strengths Very for giving to repair BlaBla Bla! As always my opinion! 1 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518719 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Todd71106 said: The local Mack house here in Shreveport actually agreed to do the job. I was upfront with them and told them it’s an oil field truck and has been deleted. Those lease roads are extremely rough on trucks. I am in there every week buying parts, so they see me a lot. They’ve got the best prices in town on brake system, suspension parts, and batteries. Even before my discount. Anyway they quoted me $3400 for the 6 pack and $1700 labor, which I thought was fair. Only problem was the 2 week wait. The independent shop is actually $300 more, but the turnaround is only 2 to 3 days. Based on my past experience with the shop, that actually means one week. Lol. IF THEN DON"T have to do it twice! Do they have Experience? That be my worry! Just sayin 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518721 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 FJH.. your right about a lot, especially my not sleeping at night, waiting for the engine to crap out again.. The only backing I have is experience, and experience tells me to STAY AWAY!!!! :). 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518723 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx610 Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 I will agree there could be improvements on it. However these issues are very small compared to another red engine. The Cummins isx is/was notorious for head gasket failures and leaking front cover. Also dropped liners due to crooked cut counterbores. These issues seemed to be almost as common as cups. So the MP doesn’t really look to bad if you look at it that way haha. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518728 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 35 minutes ago, Onyx610 said: I will agree there could be improvements on it. However these issues are very small compared to another red engine. The Cummins isx is/was notorious for head gasket failures and leaking front cover. Also dropped liners due to crooked cut counterbores. These issues seemed to be almost as common as cups. So the MP doesn’t really look to bad if you look at it that way haha. True! pick your poison ! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518731 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark T Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 ISX gets a pass cause there's lots more right foot there. Guys don't care about much else when they drive them. MP is a pretty good engine and before too long will be looked back fondly at. If everything is followed as per specs when doing a repair, they're no worse than anything else. How many guys you think actually go through marking fasteners or know what the marks would mean to indicate how many times it was used ? Then like Jojo said, guys skip'n the clean'n cause they're paid by the job. Lots of these new engines are abused and piss poor repairs made on them cause someone is more worried about making money than a repair. Todd's lucky he has a dealer that'll work with him . Now if he's also lucky and gets 6 injectors that don't leak fuel around the push rod .... he should use some numbers from the invoice to play the lottery 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518740 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted December 20, 2022 Share Posted December 20, 2022 Yup that’s a crap shoot! Performance six pack ! There’s why you don’t use your own parts ! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-518746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd71106 Posted January 2, 2023 Author Share Posted January 2, 2023 Just an update here. The diesel repair shop replaced the injector cups and the truck actually runs worse when and if it starts up. Lots of bubbles in the fuel tanks. They now plan to replace the injectors with a discounted labor rate. I have not paid them anything yet. They quoted me $6000 for everything. Starting to wish that I would’ve attempted this job myself. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519609 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx610 Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Was this “diesel shop” a Mack/Volvo dealership? Most places replace the injectors anyway to keep the guessing out and this kind of shit from happening. Plus it’s more upsell. I really think you could have done it, thanks for the update. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 18 minutes ago, Onyx610 said: Was this “diesel shop” a Mack/Volvo dealership? Most places replace the injectors anyway to keep the guessing out and this kind of shit from happening. Plus it’s more upsell. I really think you could have done it, thanks for the update. Yup keep up the posts! Un fortunately It may have been worth the wait to go to a dealer! As mentioned its its best to replace injectors and cups for this very reason ! Doing it twice ! Same as doing it your self! So much tinkery ass shit to be aware of! Constantly moving goal posts! 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519697 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 FJH, on 12/20, you posted your concern.. It sucks that you were right... Nothing personal .. Too Bad I dont have the 'Berries' to buy all the tools for cups and injectors, and offer a service... Seems to me that every other MP posting is cups and injectors.. Anyway, Happy New Year !!! Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519701 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 23 minutes ago, Joey Mack said: FJH, on 12/20, you posted your concern.. It sucks that you were right... Nothing personal .. Too Bad I dont have the 'Berries' to buy all the tools for cups and injectors, and offer a service... Seems to me that every other MP posting is cups and injectors.. Anyway, Happy New Year !!! Yup same to everyone here happy year folks ! Joe you’re doing the right thing bro stick with what you know! You need to embrace this new stuff and sort of believe in it! Don’t know about you but myself ! I don’t! It’s Too fragile and temperamental! 😂 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519704 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Thanks Buddy... I try to respect the newer stuff.. I feel like some of the repair procedures are good for strengthening the brains of mechanics, I just wish it wasnt "Death By a Thousand Cut's" for the owners of these trucks.. They have enough to do to make a good living without the added Emissions crap, and poor parts qualiity.. I am sticking to what I know.. Some day, I hope to be one of those 'Old Timers' that is hard to find, who knows how to fix your Grandpa's Classic/Antique, RD/CL/CH/DM/CX.. and so on... that he left you in his 'will'... Kind'a like some of the guys that post here about a family owned truck that need's some love.. Am I making any sense?? Jojo 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519708 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd71106 Posted January 2, 2023 Author Share Posted January 2, 2023 Right now, my biggest fear is that he will replace one or some of the injectors, but charge me for all 6. But, at some point you have to trust someone. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519716 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx610 Posted January 2, 2023 Share Posted January 2, 2023 Tell him you want to see all the old ones 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx610 Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 And tell him now before he can claim to have sent them out for cores haha. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519789 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 19 minutes ago, Onyx610 said: And tell him now before he can claim to have sent them out for cores haha. Yup get on it! 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519791 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onyx610 Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 It’s a shame you took the truck to a place that you have to question this. That would make me question the rest of the work. With cups you usually either have a disturbance in cooling system (combustion gas outside cup) or a disturbance to the fuel system (combustion gas inside cup.) Typically when fuel side is compromised the injectors on the offending cylinders are toast. If stuck back in guess what you get??? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519796 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 I always go back to: not looking inside the cup bores for debris or spider webs (cracks), soot etc:.. then I question proper cleaning procedures, which is tough enough as it is, before cutting out steps.. the bores need to be wiped out and blown out and checked thouroughly. You need to make sure that no bristles from the 3-M needle pad have gotten loose inside the fuel galleries. The dealerships make it a game to beat SRT.. I always said... just fix it right, forget SRT.. I made many mistakes in my early days, and I worked hard to not make those mistakes again.. Attention to detail is crucial.. To this day, when I work on anything, I do the best I can to be accurate in my repairs. Yes I have had issues, and make a mistake here and there.. But these injector cup issues should be routine repairs by now, without error... Hell. I dont know ... I welcome opinions.. time for bed.. Jojo 1 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
fjh Posted January 3, 2023 Share Posted January 3, 2023 12 hours ago, Joey Mack said: I always go back to: not looking inside the cup bores for debris or spider webs (cracks), soot etc:.. then I question proper cleaning procedures, which is tough enough as it is, before cutting out steps.. the bores need to be wiped out and blown out and checked thouroughly. You need to make sure that no bristles from the 3-M needle pad have gotten loose inside the fuel galleries. The dealerships make it a game to beat SRT.. I always said... just fix it right, forget SRT.. I made many mistakes in my early days, and I worked hard to not make those mistakes again.. Attention to detail is crucial.. To this day, when I work on anything, I do the best I can to be accurate in my repairs. Yes I have had issues, and make a mistake here and there.. But these injector cup issues should be routine repairs by now, without error... Hell. I dont know ... I welcome opinions.. time for bed.. Jojo WELL ! Bet you slept well last nite Joey! 😅 Obviously the shop doing the job, did not, if they care! Like Onyx says done one you done ten! How ever again this comes down to experience attention to detail and patience! Also did these guys confirm the cups were fubar! was there evidence of the injectors dancing , carbon build up,cracks etc. Did they follow all the steps did the use the magic grease on the seal? ! There are lots of ways to beat the book time skip the tune up portion of the job bla bla bla ! that said do you want to be the guy that's doing it twice? Micro cracks on the injectors is quite common did they re use the injectors ? Likley! These arn't your garden variety 400 cummins that any jackass can replace an injector! they are temperamental you have to pay attention on how you work on them mainly to the half baked fuel system design ! SO Follow procedure and things should go ok AS long as you don't miss something !They changed from the copper cups to stainless how ever it only half assed fixed the problem ! The design is flawed as I have said before ! How ever it is work for people as long as its done right! If everything was perfect on these, guys like Pro, Onyx wouldn't have a job! If these engines had a proper fuel system on them they would be bullet proof! And they wouldn't sell any parts! 🤣 also if it weren't this problem I'm sure something else would come up! 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-519876 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd71106 Posted February 7, 2023 Author Share Posted February 7, 2023 I finally got the truck back 3 weeks ago. It ran good for a day or 2. It was loosing power at higher RPM's as the fuel tank level decreased. There are no more bubbles returning to the fuel tank. Instead there is now soot flowing back into the fuel tank. I took it back to the shop and they have had it now for 3 weeks. They all ready got my $6500 so they were in no hurry to fix the problem. They just started working on it yesterday. They are telling me there is zero PSI fuel pressure under load. They don't seem to want to address the soot problem. Would a loose injector cause soot to flow back into the tank? maybe re-using stressed fasteners? Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/70890-banjo-bolts-injector-cups/page/2/#findComment-524792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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