Solution Geoff Weeks Posted June 29, 2023 Solution Share Posted June 29, 2023 Reading back through this thread, I see a couple questions that were never answered. The Engine family that is the medium K's (BLD) at one point COULD be fitted with a Mag. I have seen it mentioned in literature but never in person. The early (wet liner) version of the engine had either a gear driven generator and distributor driven off the back of the generator, on the left side of the engine or a mag. This was a common practice in the 20's. The mechanical fuel pump that is on the left side in the K's was on the right side on the early engines with a pushrod that ran across the block to the cam on the other side. If you pull the generator mount off a BLD there is a casting hole in the block behind it in the shape of a fuel pump mount, but not machined out. Wetliner engine are easy to spot due to the lack of core plugs in the side of the block, as core sand could be shaken out through the bore openings. (Like most wet lined engines) This design lead to a problem when gear drive generator/distributors were abandon in the later 30's. Where to you put a distributor on an engine that didn't have a directly driven distributor designed in from the get go? The answer is one of the distinct visual ques of the engine family, namely a distributor mounted high over the valve cover. When the engine was designed, it had the oil pump drive off the inside of the cam, which left no room to mount a distributor directly on the oil pump drive. Most engines drive the oilpimp from the outside of the cam, allowing for enough room to mount a distributor. They extended the drive all the way up to the top of the valvecover, and mounted the distributor there. This lead to problems later in the 50's when installed in cabover trucks. But that is a story for another day. The same basic engine lasted until the late 60's early 70's. It wasn't, however exported to the land down under which used a AG version of the the small 6 in their trucks of the size that used the BLD/BD up here. The HiTorque rear brakes are another issue. They have a special cup on the small piston with a protrusion that sits in a recess in the piston. As far as I know these cups are not available anywhere unless someone stumbles on NOS. To rebuild you must fill the recess with epoxy (to make a flat surface) and use a common available cup. Not sure what the thinking was on the recess, but seams to function fine without them. Like all IHC designed 6's it used a gear driven cam, a remote (from the oil pump) relief valve that can be a problem if someone tries to replace the oil filter adapter or valve adapter if the engine has no filter, with one from a later engine. Early engine had a bypass oil filter and the later (50's and up) re design had a full flow filter, but they are not interchangeable. More info than most will be interested in I bet. 1 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-533827 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted June 29, 2023 Author Share Posted June 29, 2023 G.W. I am TRULY GREATFUL!!! I am glad-no-lucky to have you and your brain.. I hope to get a chance to shake your hand and buy you a beer or few someday... Jojo Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-533831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleclutchinweasel Posted June 30, 2023 Share Posted June 30, 2023 The brain trust on here just got a lot bigger... 2 Quote "Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines." Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-533860 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowerman Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 My god this sucker just made us all feel stupid ha ha thanks for all that… Bob Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534047 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 I had a thought, or may be delirium. One of my 269's came with an early Delco gear reduction starter for the RED series big six on it. I remembered I had a later 12 volt starter from a RD 406 (the newer version of the RED engine) but alas, they were not the same, The RD used the SAE even spaced three bolt mount. It does have a removable (and indexable) nose cone on it, so if the right nose could be found, it might just work. The RED starter has the three bolt mount but not SAE pattern. If you want the RD starter to play around with it is yours for the asking. However, the last time someone thought they wanted it, decided against it when they found out how much shipping would be. It was about 1/2 dozen years ago and at that time it was close to $100 to ship. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534075 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) Ok, I've spent some times in my Delco books. The reman for the '59-'68 BD 282 or 308, which the successor to the BLD 269. is 323-637 It crosses to this: https://www.filterspro.com/WILSON-91-01-3698_p_1813765.html Which looks possible, but with the top mounted solenoid, wouldn't likely clear the manifold. Might be able to flip the end housing so the solenoid is on the bottom. Looking at it better, the the end is not rotatable, but I also noticed the solenoid would be mounted 90 deg from the top, facing the fender. It would be a gamble, I am not sure it would work. But as close as I have come. The '59-'68 Delco book shows the re-man starter for the BD 282 or 308, the successor to the BLD 269, same basic engine casting. is 323-637 which is obsolete but crosses to this: Edited July 3, 2023 by Geoff Weeks 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534076 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 (edited) G.W. Thank you so much... I have a picture of the starter tag.. Edited July 3, 2023 by Joey Mack I made a Boo Boo Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534083 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 G.W. your effort to post the info is amazing.. I just wish I was actively working on my KB.. I have a full time job, and a house to maintain, and i have 2 engines in my shop that I have been pickin' at.. My KB is taking a back seat right now.. God Bless you for all that You bring to us and Me... Jojo Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534086 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 Well if you have in the info, you can use it when you have time. It was too hot to spend all day out in the sun, so when inside with the A/C I grabbed my Delco book and had a look. All that being said. I am not 100% it will bolt in and work. There is good reason to believe that the 282-308 would use the same flywheel/ring gear. The question would be if the mount bolt pattern is identical and the pilot circle is the same. It is a good bet they are, but not 100%. Mfg don't like to change stuff they don't have too, at least back then, no so much today. There is also depth to ring gear, which might be different. It would be nice to lay them side by side (old 6 volt vs 12 volt mt-10) and see where the drive ends up when extended. ] It would be really nice to be able to do that before buying! 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534088 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 I too expect the bolt pattern to be the same, I thing the tooth count was 9, but not sure... im going to my shop right now to count it.. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534089 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 10 teeth.... Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534094 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 I wouldn't be too concerned about drive tooth count. There has to be a ton of drives made for the MT-10 starter. 10 sounds right, as I think that it was I bought when I needed one for one of my rebuilds. With that number or one of the cross-reference numbers on that ad, you could troll Ebay Face book etc, and see if you could find one cheap. May be you'll get lucky and one will pop up before you get back to working on the K. Took me 20 years or there abouts, but I think I found a hand crank for my -7's. Most want silly money for a piece of bar stock with a coupla bends and pin. Just took keeping an eye out. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534097 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted July 3, 2023 Author Share Posted July 3, 2023 I figured I will just make a hand crank.. I have a lot of scrap resources for free material.. I think I can re-build this starter, after reading your info.. I did search for it, even at Delco... ''No results found''.. Oh well.. I bet I take it apart and find a loose connection.. It was working great then it just stopped.. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534098 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 The main stud through the case is where the two winding split off, I often find one field has broke loose from the stud. It is caused by people trying to get the nut off the cable, and twisting the whole stud. The winding bar stock is soldered to the stud. There is also a wire between the two "hot" brushes that can degrade. Stud kits, brushes and even rear covers are available both aftermarket and NOS. The same starter with a different nose cone and/ or drive was used on a lot of tractors and other vehicles. so parts are not really a problem. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534099 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted July 3, 2023 Share Posted July 3, 2023 There is one listed as a Lester 4151 on ebay but it is a 4150 and only a two hole mount. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-534100 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 Hey JoJo, when looking for something else, I came across this Leece Neville buyers guide. List several modern gear reduction starters with SAE #1 flange in 12 or 24 volt with 10 tooth pinion, as well as pertinent info on the starter. Page 42. I think you should be able to find one to fit. Also helpful to anyone looking for a new starter. Leece naville.pdf 1 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536359 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 Thanks GW.. I saved that info to the folder I have for my KB.. I hope to get started back on it this fall.. I have other obligations.. Jojo Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536360 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 I just looked through all 60 pages of the book.. It's like you,,, A wealth of info.. thanks again.. Jojo Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536361 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) I just stumbled upon it looking for examples of SAE starter flanges. The K-7's use an SAE #1 and I have #2 and # 3 flanges as well. #2 seams to obsolete, not used any more. I was suprised to find #1 was still in common use, which make it easy. Here is my pic of the #1,#2and #3 lined up. 2 and three differ in bolt hole size and pilot ring. Edited August 6, 2023 by Geoff Weeks 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536363 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 here is mine.. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536364 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted August 6, 2023 Author Share Posted August 6, 2023 I guess I have a #1.. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536365 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted August 6, 2023 Share Posted August 6, 2023 (edited) Yes, the K series 6-12 all used a #1. Later the big six used a SAE #2 The #2 in my picture came from an RD 450 IHC 6 as did the #1, but it was an earlier version of the same engine a RED 450 You don't see many #2 flanges anymore but is good to know they exist, because a quick look, you might think it is a common #3, then the cussing starts when you try and mount it! It seams they have dropped the #2 and just one and three are used today. Edited August 6, 2023 by Geoff Weeks Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/72568-i-need-a-12-volt-starter-for-my-48-kb-7/page/4/#findComment-536368 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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