Wheel Seal Question

[67RModel]

I have a leaking wheel seal on my drop axle. Axle is a 20,000lb non steerable Silent Drive, which I think is technically a Dexter axle now. Anyway, I tore it apart to change it and I found strange damage to the metal collar that slides onto the spindle first. The Seal is a Stemco 2110 Grit Guard. And the hub is a Webb 22.5 dayton spider hub. The failed wheel seal was only 1.5 years old and had less than 10,000 miles on it. What would cause the collar to get damaged like that? The seal itself pressed into the race looks completely fine (not visibly damaged) but obviously is seeping somewhere. Any thoughts?

[terry]

Looks like somebody tried to hammer the wear ring on with a hammer and not using the right installation tool.    terry

[67RModel]

OK. How tight should the collar be? It slid off pretty easily with very little effort. Just a little wiggle and it slid right off, which would lead me to think it slid right on and no tool was required. Should there be a lot of friction between the collar and spindle? Perhaps is the wrong seal and collar for this application?

[fjh]

1 hour ago, 67RModel said:

OK. How tight should the collar be? It slid off pretty easily with very little effort. Just a little wiggle and it slid right off, which would lead me to think it slid right on and no tool was required. Should there be a lot of friction between the collar and spindle? Perhaps is the wrong seal and collar for this application?

Well My opinion! I might get flamed for this however !  Don't use a Stemco seal for starters ! Go get a CR Or National Even the Meritor seals are decent! My experiance is that for the most part if the seal is leaking and there is nothing wrong with a bearing or preload on a bearing ITs usually a stemco seal on that wheel Not always but For the most part! I used to be a Stemco believer for Years  But not now! the simplicity is great how ever longevity not so much! also you should be equipped with ALL the proper drive in tools for the wear rings and the seal itself! punches and drifts don't work well!

[Joey Mack]

I like the Stemco 2 pc. seal.. You need the proper seal and wear ring drivers!!!!!!!!!!  Stemco does make a Voyager series that is plastic and rubber, and I have had good service from them..  Now,,,,  If the area on the spindle were the seal goes is comprimised,  or mabey someone, just split that seal ring with a chisel, and they went right through to the spindle and made a cut,,,,   well,, your choices are slim. the Stemco 2 pc. is the way to go, with a KISS of RTV inside the wear ring before install..  If you want to see a picture of the tool, I have the tool and the heads, I can post a picture...  Now, back to what FJH said,  He is right, those seals are really good..  Spindle condition will be MY question..  Pictures are always welcomed...  

[Joey Mack]

So this is my Stemco Tool set...  Yes there is light rust on them,, never mind, I clean them before using them..  But the blue can looking tool is what is used, with the correct head, to install the wear ring you posted..  They are not to be installed with a hammer..  

[MACKS]

So u use no heat on the wear ring to install?

[Joey Mack]

   with the Blue can looking tool that i have.. you put a small bead of RTV on the back side of the wear ring, and by-hand,, push it on to the spindle, then the tool , with the correct head,,  ( tool numbers are printed on the Stemco seal box), and use a mallet against the tool, to drive the wear ring on to the spindle..  remove the tool, wipe off ALL excess RTV, rub the ring with gear oil, for the install..  set the seal in the hub,(with the correct installer)  then, install the hub..  Its the same as any other hub install..  You cannot use the wear ring with any seal due to seal I.D.  it is a matched set..  

I know many of you know exactly how to install a wheel seal, I'm just posting for those that may not have a vast knowledge of the different ways..  

MACKS,  as far as using heat,,,  I expect it is done buy guys with good skills...  unlike whoever installed the wear ring in the picture.. 

[terry]

26 minutes ago, MACKS said:

So u use no heat on the wear ring to install?

NO heat with the right instalation tools!    terry

[mechohaulic]

was always a stemco believer ; had at one time quite an assortment of the install tools :: in the dinosaur days when each seal had it's own drive tool ; before the blue tube and changeable heads. the grit guard seals were a big improvement for keeping crap out. technology came out with the spin within itself seals (C/R). bet not too many remember the stemco seals when the wrap was actually leather ?? based on picture; i go with a improper install with a hammer. in hardship cases , I have used the inner bearing for ring install, carefully tapping inner race with flat punch, huge metal washer found in the HD Mack rear wheels also worked for a tapping spacer. close tolerance on spindle / thick enough to tap on.

[mechohaulic]

another way to build a set of install tools ; look in the scrap barrel for any bad bearings, cut the outer cage =throw out the rollers and keep inner bear piece;  . extreme caution with hitting  the harden bearing parts. installing a wear ring doesn't take a 20lb sledge; little RTV and even round the spindle tapping. stemco did make a spin within it self seal which required no install tools even tapping . I always lube the two spinning pieces before install whether C/r or stemco.

[Joey Mack]

5# hammer is good enough..  

[Joey Mack]

Thank you Mech..  

[Mark T]

Grit Guards don't work on as many things as they used to because of the exciter ring (tone wheel) for the anti-locks.  The correct tool is a must though if using one. To add to Joey's mentioning the correct adaptor as per the seal's packaging, the adaptor is just big enough to fit over the spindle where the inner bearing goes. Then the contact surface that pushes the wear ring on is flat ( the wear ring has no choice but to go on straight ) .  If you use the proper tooling (as Joey said) you won't end up with a wear ring like in the picture. Some guys would remove wear rings by driving a chisel into the wear surface. If it was hit hard enough it could nick the wear surface of the axle housing (spindle)  or ???  if a previous failure grooved it up, that's where a coating of silicone or number 2 Permatex comes in for inside the wear ring.   That picture looks like it was driven on with a punch or hammer.   Now a days there's all sorts of wheel seals that don't require a installation tool of any kind.    Then there's the adjusting the wheel bearings after determining if they're serviceable .........  whole other story.   (like someone who would do that to a wear ring would put the wheeel bearing nuts on with a hammer and chisel too)

[Hans Remmers]

46305 cr seal would be my first choice for this application as long as the seal ring on the spindle is not compromised in a way as was described by others in this post. 46300 is easier to install but also easier to pull loose from the seal bore when wrestling the spoke hub back on, whatever method you're using.  That stemco seal 2110 is part of set 372-7097 but the wear rings are very difficult to properly install without the proper drive tool. You shouldn't be able to remove or install the wear ring with your bare hands. I use a thin coating of ultra grey sealant on the outside edge of most seals when installing 

[Hans Remmers]

It's also difficult to see where the seal was riding in the wear ring pictured but it appears the wear ring wasn't installed far enough onto the spindle.

[mrsmackpaul]

I have run both types of seals and find they both work okay

Most times I get wheel seals leaking the breather is blocked 

As the oil heats it is forced out

Anyway, the grit guard works fine, I was bad and probably should be sent to the naughty corner

I heat the grit guard in the Princesses oven and bung heaps of loctite bearing retainer on the hub and tap the hot grit guard on gently

Never new there was a proper tool

If your a rough bastard like me just little love taps keeping really square seams to work

But now I know theresa proper tool I'm gunna keep a eye out for it 

 

Paul

[Hayseed]

15 hours ago, 67RModel said:

OK. How tight should the collar be? It slid off pretty easily with very little effort. Just a little wiggle and it slid right off, which would lead me to think it slid right on and no tool was required. Should there be a lot of friction between the collar and spindle? Perhaps is the wrong seal and collar for this application?

Sounds Like A Job for a Speedi sleeve to Me..!!

 

https://www.sealsolutionsaustralia.com.au/product/speedi-sleeve/

[fjh]

So Even with all the right tools the Stemco seals  do not stand the test of time these days! The simple design is great how ever ! With todays Q design brakes A guy can't just whip a drum off and change out shoes with out changing the seal! Even with the grit guard concept when you disturb the dust and crap when changing shoes you inevitably get grime in the seal and end up doing the job twice ! This is my main reasoning of not promoting the use of them! I have seen alot of almost new shoes ruined by just doing the shoes and not the seal specially on trailers  ! Just my opinion ! I realize that we are working with a steer axle in this instance and it is not apples to apples! This still applies to drive axles ! again my opinion ! If you got an axle you pull the drum and find you have a stemco seal you may just as well pull the hub and do the seal as well! AS if you don't you will be doing that same job two - six months down the road with a bigger mess to clean up!  If that wheel has a CR Or just about any one of the afore mentioned seals you can safely for the most part be fairly confident you will make the next brake job ! Just an observation!

Also I worked with a guy that worked in a cold climate 30 below for six months of the year ! He claimed that the CR / national  type seals did not work well in these conditions! In this instance there is a place for a Stemco ! He swore by stemco till he moved to this region of the country and started seeing what I've be talking about!

 just Sayin!

 

[mrsmackpaul]

Dunno about all of this is better than that type of deal

I feel more seals are damaged by people not keeping the hub square to the axle when sliding the hub back on than any wear and tare 

Or people not cleaning the hub out properly before driving the new seal home and seal not been able to sit square afterwards 

Both these types of seals work fine for many 100s of thousands of km if fitted properly and the breathers kept clean 

 

Paul

[terry]

I ran the two piece stemco’s for years, never had a problem. Terry

[Joey Mack]

I believe in the 2 pc. stemco seal..  when it is installed with the proper tool's... 

For those that have figured out a different way to do it, I mean NO disrespect..  

[Mark T]

1 hour ago, mrsmackpaul said:

Dunno about all of this is better than that type of deal

I feel more seals are damaged by people not keeping the hub square to the axle when sliding the hub back on than any wear and tare 

Or people not cleaning the hub out properly before driving the new seal home and seal not been able to sit square afterwards 

Both these types of seals work fine for many 100s of thousands of km if fitted properly and the breathers kept clean 

 

Paul

I believe you're right Paul.  Reason I went to CR was cause of the anti lock brakes.  Then after accumulating all the tools for them, I gave away all my Stemco tools.   Your last line is often overlooked. Nothing has a chance of working if it's ruined from the word go.

[67RModel]

Ok thanks for all the responses. I don’t have time to sit down and really digest all the info right now. I will get some pictures of the spindle and upload. I’m guessing this seal wasn’t installed properly with the correct tools. More to follow.

[Joey Mack]

the area that the wear ring was on, needs to be buffed clean and inspected for chisel marks, pitting, and small dents on the horizontal face..  if it is clean and not damaged, you can use a seal that can be installed without special tool's.  A Stemco voyager can be installed with care using a piece of flat stock and a mallet.  CR and National make an OK seal that should be installed with the correct driver. a seal driver may be home made using a PVC pipe large enough to fit O.D. of the seal.. I dont know what size you need..   just a thought that i have..