Pair of mack tandems and steering axles

[Frank in Kuwait]

Does anyone know if there is any value is a couple pairs of old Mack rearends 1 pair is from a B61 the other set is from a B755 I don't know anything about them other than they roll free and don't seem to have a lot of slack in them Both pairs have Budd hubs. I also have the steering axles

Will accept most reasonable offers 

e mail me or find me on the just old trucks 

[fjdrill]

Where are they located?

[Geoff Weeks]

west Texas

[mowerman]

Yes, you’ve got lots of people’s attention . Good luck most.Fellas looking for that stuff. Do not really want to pay a whole lot. Regular guys with restoration projects. And lower gears are not going to move everybody wants tall gears … plus shipping is a fortune.. gotta be pretty much within driving distance good luck to you. Yes they will be lots of interest for sure for  all of it…. Bob

[mowerman]

Oh, I forgot to add the bud wheels will be a big plus lots of guys want to get rid of the spokes, both front and rear again good luck.. bob

[Geoff Weeks]

I never will understand the draw of disk wheels, minimum 10 (8 for Motor wheels, but they are mostly gone from the market) fasteners to get a wheel off 20 on inner stud pilot.  5 or 6 and I can have any rim off a spoke. Less torque on the nuts, so can easily change with hand tools.  Lighter, don't crack, only draw back is inboard drums, but I know of a few shops that pull the wheels and hub together when doing brakes, regardless of inboard or outboard drums, their reason is they don't want a leaky seal to ruin a good brake job  regardless if they changed the seal or not, they would be blamed, so might as well pull, inspect bearings and replace the seal on a brake change.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Geoff Weeks

[doubleclutchinweasel]

Spoked wheels definitely are easier to change on the side of the road with hand tools.  No doubt.  A spare spoke rim and tire is also lighter than a disc.  Spokes can be more difficult to get true, though.  Takes a little finesse.  And I have heard stories of people twisting the rims on the spokes when heavily loaded.  But, I never saw that in person.

But, he's right.  Somebody will probably be interested in those (especially the front) because of the disc wheel setup.  Somebody on here every few days looking for hubs to convert one from spokes to discs.

Not sure if he has hub-piloted or stud-piloted.

Me, I'm still a pretty big fan of spokes!  Just a stubborn old man, I suppose!  Part of what made a Mack a Mack back in the day.  To each his own...

[67RModel]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I never will understand the draw of disk wheels, minimum 10 (8 for Motor wheels, but they are mostly gone from the market) fasteners to get a wheel off 20 on inner stud pilot.  5 or 6 and I can have any rim off a spoke. Less torque on the nuts, so can easily change with hand tools.  Lighter, don't crack, only draw back is inboard drums, but I know of a few shops that pull the wheels and hub together when doing brakes, regardless of inboard or outboard drums, their reason is they don't want a leaky seal to ruin a good brake job  regardless if they changed the seal or not, they would be blamed, so might as well pull, inspect bearings and replace the seal on a brake change.

I agree totally. Spokes for life. It really is kind of sad they have completely disappeared from the market. I personally I think they are safer for on/off road vocational dump truck work since as you said they don't crack. Mack still calls for 240-260 ft*lb on the clamp lug nuts if the stud thread is 3/4"-10 UNC, which is what Mack 44k rears generally have. You can achieve this pretty easily with a 3/4" breaker bar and a small cheater pipe. I have no clue what modern hub pilot lug nuts call for but I imagine its considerable higher than 250 ft*lb? And yes the Budd system is complete diabolical garbage. No question about the advantages of spoke wheels over budd wheels. I can see why the industry moved to hub pilot though. I think no matter how good you get the run out on a spoke wheel balanced my guess is it will never be as good as a hub pilot. Its just the nature of the beast. Some bean counter at the mega carriers figured out there is probably less accelerated tire wear with the hub pilot system as well as considerable weight savings. Not to mention you need to have a certain amount of skill and pride in your work to get Dayton wheels running true....something nobody probably wants to take the time to do anymore. I wonder if you can actually go into a Mack dealer right now and order a highway tractor with spoke hubs? Better yet I would like to see the salesman's face if you did. 😂

[doubleclutchinweasel]

2 minutes ago, 67RModel said:

Not to mention you need to have a certain amount of skill and pride in your work to get Dayton wheels running true....something nobody probably wants to take the time to do anymore. 

You said a mouthful right there...

[mowerman]

Yes, same  here .. the  ready to work look I prefer them also..  my front wheels I can pull a part. With a half inch air wrench and fact, I’m probably going to change all my tires myself … Bob

[mowerman]

But God love those that prefer the buds , and willing to go any length to change them …. Bob

[Geoff Weeks]

Last I knew you could still order replacement trailer axles with spokes. I don't know about tractors axles.  It is not hard to true spokes, but it does take the correct procedure.  Any monkey with a 1" impact can over torque a disk wheel.

When I had my tractor in for a front end alignment, the shop (a major truck tire shop) foreman commented I could teach their guys a thing or two about mounting Spokes. It is not hard to get them true, and I have noticed no wear problems or life difference between tires on disks and spokes

 I have one spoke wheel (tube type) that I am going to have to clean up and take a picture of. Some monkey with a 1" air impact tried to "torque them straight) and the rim is pulled into a 5 point star on the inner diameter and the lock ring is pulled out of the groove in between the spokes, never the less the assembly stayed intact and was run down the road. The amazing thing was the torque on that 3/4" stud! it held, how I don't know.

 I have had multiple cracked disk wheels, both hub and stud pilot, and multiple fractured wheel studs with disks. Since all of my stuff was used, I can never be sure of prior treatment. Repeated over torque of wheel studs has been a real problem, and you can't know what was done in the past. I changed my linehauls to spoke wheels and only the reserve tractor still had stud pilot disks.

Somewhat like the argument of tubeless over tube type. People love to compare today's tires against the tube type's from the 70's or earlier. 70's tires were crap whether they were tube or tubeless. I am one of the few that was buying and running 10Rx20's. Not only did they last every bit as long as the tubeless 11Rx22.5's but capped as many times (I ran three treads off my tires, original, two caps, most would take a 3rd cap but the casing wouldn't last until the 3rd cap was worn, so I scrapped after two caps). Only thing bad about them is the tubes available are crap these days, if not used in a year, they crack and degrade sitting in their sealed bag on the shelf. I had started phasing them out toward the end because of the tube issue.

 A few years ago, I saw a brand new side dump trailer in transit to its 1st owner, It was a tri axle on 24" tube types on hub pilot wheels! That was an odd duck!

[67RModel]

44 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I changed my linehauls to spoke wheels and only the reserve tractor still had stud pilot disks.

Geoff do you have any pictures of your fleet from back in the day? Would be interesting to see the old iron.

Edited October 11, 2023 by 67RModel

[Joey Mack]

I too agree, and like spokes.  67Rmodel,,,The torque on the hub piloted nuts is 450-500 lbft.. it's actually stamped on them.  Jojo

[Geoff Weeks]

The one with the snowplows was on Hank's website, snapped by a tourist, the other is the three I ran, the small cabover in the fore ground was the back-up tractor.

Marmon started life with 8 lug Motor wheels, and the big bunk had stud pilot originally

On the snowplow pic, front drive axle has 10Rx20's on it.

Edited October 11, 2023 by Geoff Weeks

[Geoff Weeks]

While I was looking, Barnhart's Pacific and my cabover hauling a line of Golhoffer trailers.

[67RModel]

Do you still have the Marmon? Is that an aftermarket sleeper on it or a Marmon integral cab? Interesting corner windows on it. I have never seen a such an animal. Did you buy it new? This thread got hijacked. 🤷‍♂️

[Geoff Weeks]

Yes, I still have it but will be selling at some point. That is Marmons integral sleeper and cab. I bought it used, like all my stuff. I bought it from the original owner who bought it "off the lot" (dealer stock order).  All flat glass, so easy to replace.

425 Cat Eaton 14615B trans DT 402 (4.11/5.63) on 20" spokes.

[fjdrill]

Wonder what part of west Texas?   Ft Worth to El Paso isn't but 600 miles. 

[Geoff Weeks]

I believe Frank lives in Stonewall county between FT Worth and Lubbock, but you'd have to contact and ask him if you are serious.  I've never met the man.

[Licensed to kill]

On 10/11/2023 at 7:25 AM, Geoff Weeks said:

I never will understand the draw of disk wheels, minimum 10 (8 for Motor wheels, but they are mostly gone from the market) fasteners to get a wheel off 20 on inner stud pilot.  5 or 6 and I can have any rim off a spoke. Less torque on the nuts, so can easily change with hand tools.  Lighter, don't crack, only draw back is inboard drums, but I know of a few shops that pull the wheels and hub together when doing brakes, regardless of inboard or outboard drums, their reason is they don't want a leaky seal to ruin a good brake job  regardless if they changed the seal or not, they would be blamed, so might as well pull, inspect bearings and replace the seal on a brake change.

I think the main reason Daytons have gone the way of the Dodo bird is weight. 

[Geoff Weeks]

Not really, they are heavier (a small bit) than aluminum hub pilot, but lighter than steel disks. The weight difference is so small as to be a non-factor. A few hundred pounds between the heaviest and lightest is hard to justify. Spoke hubs the spokes are hollow, the drum is inboard and so lighter (doesn't have to extend over the hub and wheel studs).  rims are lighter.

 Somewhere I have seen the weight of each type hub, complete with tires, the difference was not as much as they want you to believe.  Far more weight can be shaved on other spec's than the hub type. 

Steel disks are the heaviest, then steel spokes then aluminum disks, then aluminum super singles. You don't see many aluminum frame tractors anymore but they were lighter, weight isn't everything.

[67RModel]

1 hour ago, Geoff Weeks said:

weight isn't everything.

To bulk haulers it is. I hauled frac sand for a while. I figured if I could have shaved off 2000 pounds from my tare weight I could have grossed an extra $20,00 - $30,000 per year at the rates then. Some guys got crazy with it. Got lightweight Freightliner FLD120s with series 60 Detroits and flat top sleepers. They would switch the drives out for super singles and run low pro 22.5 steers and then gut every unnecessary piece of anything out of the interior. Some of them even had custom two hopper aluminum pneumatic trailers made instead of the typical 3 hoppers you see. There was a company I ran into that ran a fleet of newer daycab Volvos and slip seated drivers for the nightshift. They had 10 or 11 liter engines, no passenger seats or any interior appointments whatsoever, single drive axle with a pusher and super singles, and ultra lightweight trailers. Their tare weight was a good 6,000 pounds less than the typical owner operator running a sleeper truck with big power. It that game 3 tons more every trip was huge. 

[Geoff Weeks]

exactly my point, single drive axle with pusher or tag, lightweight engine, 5 spd with 2 spd rear all will make much bigger difference than wheels. If you  want every last lb then sure I can see it, but most care more about "looks". 

Most are not looking for every last pound, if it is that important, then it is likely the rates are so close to the bone that the only way to make it is to strip down.

 It is always a trade off between durability and service life and weight.  Cutting fuel capacity is an easy way to stuff more on the truck.

Steel disk wheels and I could scale 53K on the deck with my small cabover and aluminum trailer, more than just about anybody else, but rarely did the extra weight carried really pay meaningful dividends, more often than not most expected to load the truck to max for the same pay..

When I was starting out there were truck companies that specialized in one thing or another, stripped down to minimize weight, and tried to "out haul" the competition, problem was they were locked into the fortunes of who they hauled for and couldn't adapt if there was a problem, they are all gone now.

 Having good service life, and flexibility is more important to me, than an extra hundred pounds or so, most times even if loaded on a scale, it is hard to get to the lb, may be with cyro-gases it can be done.  Assuming you are going to make an extra $20K is assuming all loaded trips are going to pay more and the trailer is going to be loaded to the last pound on every trip. Super singles and aluminum rim cut weight, until you blow one tire and it takes out the tire and aluminum rim with it, then you loose a lot of that extra cash, duals will not generally take out the rim with a blown tire.

 spec'ing for every last lb is very expensive, aluminum frames differential carriers, transmissions all could be had in aluminum, but the cost is why they are no longer popular, they also didn't give the service life that heavier cast iron did.

Back when I bought my trailer, going from all steel/wood floor to composite const cost about $1500-$2000  more and may be got you 700-1000 in weight savings, going from composite to aluminum cost another $10,000 and got you another 1000 lbs in weight savings.

 A company hauling their own product can justify  spec'ing to optimize for that product, but even then they often don't, the "savings" don't pay for the extra expense.

Custom two hopper aluminum may save weight, but when it starts prematurely cracking either has to be replaced with another custom, or a money pit to keep it in one piece.

Edited October 12, 2023 by Geoff Weeks

[67RModel]

45 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

Assuming you are going to make an extra $20K is assuming all loaded trips are going to pay more and the trailer is going to be loaded to the last pound on every trip.

I don't know what you mean by this. Its basic math. If you are able to lower your tare weight by X your net will increase by the same X regardless of the pay rate.  And yes we were loaded to the last pound plus on every trip. Loaded on a scale under a silo most of the time. Even loading via a conveyor the metering scales on those are pretty accurate. If you told them you wanted 45,000 pounds put on you got extremely close to that. I don't know, the boom cycle of the oilfield is a different animal. The rates were so high money was basically no object. If you wanted to spend stupid money on getting super light you got paid back extremely quickly. I never really engaged in it since I was already pretty light and yes super singles scared me. The guys that did what I described previously about going after every single pound were only there to make money and couldn't care less about looks. I think a lot of them bought trucks specifically for that work and parked their over the road rigs. Sent them to the auction when the bust came. I think the company that had the feather weight Volvos I was talking about did contract pneumatic bulk haul for many different industries/customers. Basically their only business was tonnage so it paid them dividends to be as light as possible since in the non oilfield bulk haul sector the margins are probably razor thin. At the time I kind of admired the way their equipment was spec'd since I knew what I was making and could do the math on how much more they were making with each trip.