E6-285 2VH problems and solutions

[Macktruckman]

Since i fabbed up the air ride on tbe cab it improved the ride but man bobtailing it’s tough to shift. Definitely bucky. Lol. Good with a trailer and smooth with a load. But bobtail its not nice to ya. Lol

[allfritz123]

We finally got the donor engine running. It sounds good.  The number 6 intake rocker at the rear of the engine is wandering on the tube against the spring pressure holding it against the support.  That is disturbing!   Anyone see something like that?  The rest of the rockers seem to be good.  When it walks it releases some oil spray from its edge.   I am guessing we need to do some work on the bushings or put in a whole new rocker assembly? Old manuals talk about honing bushings for rockers.  It seems tight tolerances ( .0005 to .0015).   Could a push rod be bent and cause the wandering.  It sure looks like the rocker has a lot of slop and more than it should when twisting it.

We put on a new turbo on because they other donor turbo was using v-band clamps and we were having trouble finding a connector on the intake turbo side to go to 3.5 inch "barb".  So just decided to update with a new one. It is a Borg Warner and the old one was a Garrett and new turbo is bigger in size than the old one.  Inlet still is 3" but meant for 3.5 inch barb hose to attach.  The Garret had a 3 inch v-band type connection system.

We found an air to air (new) and had the horns turned out like Josh had done by a machine shop.   We found some piping from NW Trucking in Edmonton and so that was a relief.  A driver's side pipe and used intake manifold!  We also  found a jake brake for it (new and made by etech!) from another supplier.  It was old stock!   The jake is working nicely when I manually engage it at the tappet top when I purged air out.  The kit came with a clutch pedal switch and a normal switch for the back of the Robert Bosch pump.   It has a diode in it and I really don't know why that switch has that in it?   I assume our truck is a negative ground setup and not a positive ground setup which apparently requires reversing the diode on the switch if it does.  Taking the foot off the gas didn't engage the jake with the 2 cylinder switches turned on so I have to figure out the electric issues there.  Maybe my switch at the pump isn't contacting?  I didn't bother with hooking up the clutch pedal switch as we never had it there with the Dynatard system in the old engine and I don't think it is necessary or important.    It looked like the wiring harness was intact and in order to install you would have to cut the wire in the harness and put the clutch switch into the system.   I think it is unnecessary?  The low idle needs to be set up and it looks like the max RPM against the pin is 1550.  So I am hoping we can adjust that up to 1800 by turning the screw to allow the lever to go forward a little more. 

We put in a brand new clutch and it appears that the clutch brake is not engaging.  We have an optional clutch brake fiber disk  shim that came with the clutch.  We hope that putting that in will rectify that.   We still have to fit the hood.  I hope it has enough room like in Josh's truck!

 

[allfritz123]

We have finally got to the bottom or top of the problem with the donor engine.   It seems it has a bent lifter on #6 intake and that is why the rocker was dancing back and forward on the rocker tube.   We are wondering why this could have occurred?  Any thoughts?  The engine ran real nice and starts immediately even with a bent push rod!  We measured the gaps before adding the jake brake and that particularly one came in correct at .016. 

[Joey Mack]

On an E-7, it is easy to set the pushrod next to the lifter instead of in it.. so when you install the new one, just be sure you are in the lifter.

[fjh]

7 hours ago, allfritz123 said:

We have finally got to the bottom or top of the problem with the donor engine.   It seems it has a bent lifter on #6 intake and that is why the rocker was dancing back and forward on the rocker tube.   We are wondering why this could have occurred?  Any thoughts?  The engine ran real nice and starts immediately even with a bent push rod!  We measured the gaps before adding the jake brake and that particularly one came in correct at .016. 

 

[fjh]

Did you check the bridges as you were setting the Valves? There is also a  possibility that if the yokes weren't set right that the yoke stuck momentarily bending that rod! Also in checking or changing the oil  before you started this up did you check for pieces on the drain plug! A lifter failure is another possible issue ! I have seen where a failed lifter flipped from an adjacent lifter to the next and caused a bent tube! Your original measurements there Are All over the place! These engines usually hold a set Very well with in 2 -3 thou! Very suspicious!

[allfritz123]

I did check the bridge fjh and I used your guideline of 60 degree turn of screw after contact.  (Another one of your appreciated posts and also your mention of dynatard camshaft!).  They were all very close.  I had to do the exhaust bridges anew because the bridge was replaced to accommodate the jake brake and a wider anvil.   I have the 4vh manual and never really understand their instructions.  I didn't have a narrow enough feeler gauge to read the .010 reading anyway!  Your instructions made perfect sense and logical!  Contact +1 flat to insure being just slightly up.  

When I removed the bent rod, it was seated in its socket as I could feel the suction when I lifted the rod out.  The engine was running very smoothly and running like a top.  After getting primed, it starts instantly and runs beautiful!  My above measurements I made were before we ever removed anything in putting on the jake assembly. It never had one before and the bridge looked good on all.   Those measurements listed were made when this engine was new to me and came out of storage.  Unusual to me was that #6 intake was bang on!

I did think it was unusual to have large variations on gaps.  I thought it may have possibly been poorly set and that perhaps someone didn't know it was a dynatard camshaft and that you have to set individual cylinders in sequence.  I read some instruction on youtube videos where on later non-dynatard camshaft engines you can set all the valves in two full turns of crankshaft.    I was thinking someone may have set it on that basis and so that was why it was wrong!

I made settings based on the intake opening, then closing and very next lining up the timing mark appropriately for it.  Once I moved into position for #1 I followed the 1/3 turn pattern to set each set in succession.  So #6 became one full turn after seeing #1 pattern.

We only ran this engine for about 20 minutes.  I didn't see anything on the bung when we had the oil pan out.  We are thinking of cutting the old oil filters apart.   There was an absolute huge amount of sludge at the bottom of the pan that did not run out and had to be scraped out.  This engine sat for at least 15 years as we bought it with the truck at an auction sale and never used until now!  Who knows how long before we got it that it sat.   We took an old propane tank, modified  and primed the oil galley before starting.  We never heard nothing when we cranked the engine over and oil pressure was up before it ever fired.  I also squirted oil on the entire top as well and made sure bridges were oiled.

Could you please explain the lifter problem and how it could interchange?  I assume the lifter is under the push rod and sits on the cam.  As I had mentioned above.  I could feel the suction as I removed the bent rod and the lifter moved up with it.

We have found another pushrod and rocker from Northwest Trucks in Edmonton.  As it is the most rear intake (6), I am not sure if I can peer down the hole without a snake.  Should I be pulling the side panel off the engine and is that a possible way to inspect this lifter?  Your thoughts are greatly appreciated and respected!

When I removed the bent rod, I put it into setting position. The engine was still hot but I did have enough clearance on the bridge that I could rotate it.

   

 

Edited March 14 by allfritz123
grammar

[Macktruckman]

I was under the impression that the previous 285 2v had a dynatard and the replacement 4v was not. If thats the case wouldn’t cam in the 4v be a standard cam and you are using the valve setting method for a dynatard engine on the new non dynatard engine? Forgive me if im way off. Im just thinking. 
josh

[allfritz123]

6 hours ago, Macktruckman said:

I was under the impression that the previous 285 2v had a dynatard and the replacement 4v was not. If thats the case wouldn’t cam in the 4v be a standard cam and you are using the valve setting method for a dynatard engine on the new non dynatard engine? Forgive me if im way off. Im just thinking. 
josh

No they kept using the dynatard camshaft in the 4vh engine.  I am not sure at what point they stopped that production.  My 4VH service manual has an entire section devoted to the dynatard engine brake so that option was still being sold and the same camshaft was therefore being used.   I don't know at what point you could no longer get the Mack dynatard brake?  Maybe when the E7 came out???  The flywheel is still marked to check valve lash on 3 different spots over 2 complete rotations.   Somewhere along the line they no longer used the dynatard camshaft as it didn't end with the 2vh.

I replaced the bent lifter and rocker arm on #6 and everything runs good now! I talked to a technician from Edmonton and asked where the problem could have been.  He said he has saw stuck valves that can cause this in a cold winter start.  If  a valve gets frozen.  It won't open.   I am wondering in the cold weather in Canada if that didn't happen before we got it.  I removed at least 2 US quarts of sludge from the oil pan.   If this truck had very dirty oil in it and then added cold winter temperatures - perhaps high visocity/stuck valve resulted in a bent pushrod?    Maybe someone "ethered" the engine and that gave it a sharp blow and sticking valve caused the bend! That is a couple of scenarios. 

Edited March 15 by allfritz123
grammar

[Macktruckman]

Valve very well may have stuck. Ive not had a stuck valve in a big engine myself but have seen it happen several times in small engines like lawn mowers. And it bent a push rod every time. Sounds very likely to me. I’m glad you got it going and look foward to hearing how it compares with the 285 when you get to use it. My 2 valve went down hard  a couple weeks ago  so im curious how the 4v is in its place as im looking for options. 
josh

[fjh]

The only way to check the lifters is to look from the bottom Pull the pan! If its running ok then leave it for now see what happens!

[allfritz123]

The engine is running really good and has no blowby.  Starts really well.  One thing I have noted is the engine RPM is only 1700 on the plate and that is all I get out of the Robert Bosch pump.   We put the hood back on and it fits!  I might tilt the radiator back a little bit at the top. Our aftercooler has some metal tabs on it which just contact the hood at the top. I could remove them too but I don't see any issue with shortening my top turnbuckles to gain the clearance.  Lots of room between fan and rad at the fan shroud. I would only move it back 1/4 inch so not a big deal.  We are thinking of adding a rad screen for grasshoppers and chaff onto those mounts.  We are also looking at adding diamond mesh to the hood opening to protect the rad.

We have an issue with a rear engine seal leak. I used the installer to put the seal and the wear sleeve in.  I did this in 2 operations. I heated the ring to 400F and put it in.  It turned out very nice and even.  I then put the seal into the cover with the same pusher and it also went in good.  I had checked the aluminum cover it pushed into  and got it to within .005 in rotation with a dial indicator.  I am getting a drip every 2 seconds. Before I starte  I checked the endplay on the crank it was .010.  The Mack specs say it can be  up to .011.     I thought the seal went in perfectly with the installing tool.  Trying to figure out why?

Is the large endplay causing this leak? It is definitely coming from the centerline of the oil pan and is not the oil pan itself.  Always issues!

I noted in an E7 manual that the maximum endplay was changed from .005 to .007.  I am over that with this E6!

Edited March 20 by allfritz123
Added last sentence

[Joey Mack]

Is the throttle arm pulling all the way open when you push the throttle.

[allfritz123]

3 hours ago, Joey Mack said:

Is the throttle arm pulling all the way open when you push the throttle.

Yes it is.  I had to make a bracket to adjust the idle rpm.  It was so low against the stop it was was way below 625.  I made an adjustment screw to bring it up to about 650 but I can adjust it if necessary.     Also, the high end in this engine's last application was set to 1550 RPM.  So  I had to remove the stop screw and allow it to come fully forward against the housing.  Then I got 1700 RPM which is what is on the plate.   I want a little more RPM as the old truck had the EM6 which allowed you to get to 2100 RPM.  So I will be a little bit slower ground speed at the top end with this engine.  We are not really concerned as it is used off road. 

I thought I would post a video with the old motor (EM6 rolling coal).  Going to miss that!

 

[Lmackattack]

You have what many mack guys call a low rpm engine. It is set to 1700 in attempt to gain fuel economy. The trucks built with these engines would l have had different rear gearing to compensate for the reduced rpm.

You will need the pump recalibrated to 2100 rpm specs to gain more rpm. Not sure if you can do it while its still on the truck but I know it can be adjusted.

 

[Macktruckman]

Well do you know how she pulls yet?

[JoeH]

On 3/13/2024 at 3:04 AM, allfritz123 said:

We have finally got to the bottom or top of the problem with the donor engine.   It seems it has a bent lifter on #6 intake and that is why the rocker was dancing back and forward on the rocker tube.   We are wondering why this could have occurred?  Any thoughts?  The engine ran real nice and starts immediately even with a bent push rod!  We measured the gaps before adding the jake brake and that particularly one came in correct at .016. 

Weak valve spring or over-revving the engine. Either will cause the valve to float, which could result in a bent rod.

[allfritz123]

On 3/28/2024 at 5:53 AM, Macktruckman said:

Well do you know how she pulls yet?

Not quite yet.  Another learning experience.  It appears the rear seal was sitting on the chamfer edge of wear ring just ever so slightly.  Removed engine after changing thrust washers thinking that might help!  Gained .002 with that move.  Still leaked a drop every 2 seconds although it quit for 30 seconds once!   Mack specs say wear ring to be at .162 and seal at .198.  My seal was already at .24 and looked like about the spot I pulled the old one came out from the housing.   Mack said to heat wear ring to 400 F and push in place.  That is what I did.  It was nice and even at about .165.   However on second look my seal is just at the chamfer interface.   I hate to have a learning experiences like this but I can now take engine out in less than a day!  Common sense should have told me to push seal in a little further and make sure it was on the flat!  Know better next time! 

[Macktruckman]

Oh man that sucks im sorry about that. Hopefully you are good to go now. 
josh

[fjh]

we built a tool similar to this  MACK REAR CRANKSHAFT SEAL/WEAR SLEEVE INSTALLER ALTERNATIVE TO J-37716 — Ferrum Tools for the shop it pushes the wear ring and seal on in one go and you can install the wiper ring with a small skim of silicone or loctite  NO HEAT a much better way to go! The wiper ring can be a real asshole thing if you don't have the right tools! Works on E6-E7 - E9 ! I'm sure Joey must have this in his arsenal of tools ?

Just sayin!

[Joey Mack]

Yes fjh, i have a rear main seal tool for Mack's. And a few other engines.. 

[fjh]

21 hours ago, Joey Mack said:

Yes fjh, i have a rear main seal tool for Mack's. And a few other engines.. 

So my point was the first tool Mack provided to do this job was a piece of junk it had four clips on it to guide the ring and did not work well! heat or no heat ! 50/50 weather it worked right! Get or borrow the right tool to do this job and you won't have as many issues! The seal is not likely leaking its likely the wear ring letting oil thru!

Just sayin!  

[Joey Mack]

I remeber the tool with the 4 clips on the side of the installer.. the one i have bolts to the flywheel and comes with spacers for E-6 and E-7. I think i paid $375.00 for it..   

[fjh]

4 hours ago, Joey Mack said:

I remeber the tool with the 4 clips on the side of the installer..

hoekey junk!

[allfritz123]

I still have problems....I didn't realize the wear ring could leak oil!  We actually bought a good tool I thought!!  It worked good.

https://monacotool.com/collections/mack/products/rear-crankshaft-seal-wear-sleeve-installer-mack-e6-e7-engines

I didn't suspect the wear ring. I heated it and pushed it in and it went in tight. I could feel it move and took some force.  I wouldn't have suspected the shrink fit leaking!  It landed nice and square at about .165 from end.  I did mic the old ring that was well used and it was about .050 around it.  The one I put in was almost perfect when I mic'd it.

We bought another seal and wear ring so we could examine it (National seal and wear ring combo from PAI).  I put the new seal and wear ring on the pusher and then removed to see where the seal was landing.   it looked like I was 1/32 inch past the chamfer and was visible on the flat of the ring.  That was NOT the case when I actually used the tool on the crankshaft.  That puzzles me.    I noticed that the seal was right at the edge of the interface  and I thought everything was good since I used a quality tool and never question - only eyeballed.  When I pulled out the engine a second time, I confirmed what I saw.   The only thing I thought was that I had seal "push back" after releasing the tool and caused it not to remain in place. Maybe a guy should rotate the crank after landing the seal in place!!?   So I machined a washer and pushed the seal in a little further until I definitely could see the edge beyond the chamfer with the naked eye.  I went in a good .040 or .050 beyond  I then used a hole micrometer and squared the seal up to about .007 from crankshaft end.  The housing and crankshaft actually mic'd perfectly and close to 0!    After pushing the seal in a little deeper,  I had a variance of about .025 around the seal.  So I tapped the seal with a punch until it was closer to square!

I still have a leak.  Very frustrating.   I think the tool was good enough to push in cold but I followed the Mack Manual and used heat!  I  get a drop every 2 to 4 seconds and I have already seen where it stopped for a while!  I used the Parker formula and have decided to run it until fall.   I may use 2 or 3 gallons in the 200 hours we put on the engine every year.  A good little app!

https://divapps.parker.com/divapps/tfd/oil-loss-calculator/ 

We made a decision to see the how the rest of the engine is working for a while and maybe in fall give it another go. I am getting tired of working on this engine - although it is a good learning experience!   The truck doesn't seem to want to leave the warmth of the shop!

Obviously if the wear ring is the problem, I am kind of screwed.  Someone suggested putting blue devil in the oil to swell a seal?!  I have never heard of that product before!  I wonder if there is anything out there that could seal up a wear ring - rather than replacing it!!!!!   Likely not or everybody would be using it!