E6-285 2VH problems and solutions

[JoeH]

How is the journal cap? If the bearing spun I imagine there would be some wear on the cap and block journal faces. Not sure if this will affect this engine's ability to be rebuilt. May need to pull the crank to mic the journal?

[JoeH]

To check camshaft I'd call the dealer and get cam part numbers for each VIN and compare.  I'd assume the part number has been supercedes numerous times, so I'd ask for all the numbers to compare.

[terry]

20 hours ago, Licensed to kill said:

On the topic of bearing size, the first engine I ever assembled was back in the early 80's. I redid a SBC for my '57 chevy at a friends place. When it came time to assemble the engine, he was not home so I did it myself. Looked at the back of the bearings and they were not marked, no stamp on the crank so I bought STD bearings. While Chris HAD plastigauge in his tool box, I did not know how to use it so I assembled the engine and when he got home a couple days later, we put the engine in the car. We fired it up, set the timing and idle and Chris told me to button up the headers but, as a young, dumb kid I decided to drive it the 20 miles home with the headers open. Got pulled over for loud exhaust (of course) but the guy let me off as I told him I was just heading home to bolt up the exhaust, then, the "gen" light came on. I pulled into a gas station and popped the hood to find the harmonic balancer laying on the cross member. Called Chris to come help, he came out (got pulled over at the same intersection I did for running the stop sign), helped put the balancer back on and I drove it back to his place. Next day I went and bolted up the exhaust, put the bolt in the crank to hold the balancer (had not done that) and while the engine warmed up, we went in to have a coffee. While sitting there, Chris said "That engine is knocking". I said "That's just the compression knock" He said "no, there is another knock. Did you put the right bearings in?". I said I put in STD because I could not find any indication otherwise. We went out to his garage and pulled the old bearings out of the trash and confirmed that they were not marked (something Chris said he had never seen before). So, I dropped the oil and pulled the pan and Chris gave me a micrometer to climb under and check a rod journal. I pulled a cap to find some copper showing, miced the journal to find that it was .030 under DOH!!. Went up town and bought a set of .030 rod bearings and changed them under the car. Chris suggested checking a mains so I pulled a cap to look but the bearing had no copper showing so that was good. Put the pan back on, added oil and fired it up. Went in to wait for it to warm up and after it ran a bit, Chris said "that thing is still knocking". So, dumped the oil, pulled the pan and pulled a main cap and miced the journal....yup, also .030 under. Rolled in a set of .030 mains and all was good. A long winded way of arriving at the moral of the story but, unless the bearings are marked I ALWAYS mic the journals. I don't even trust a stamped crank as it could have been turned a second time and not restamped. Also, I now NEVER run a new engine without mufflers as open exhaust makes it pretty much impossible to hear what is going on. 

I ran into this on a 72 el camino, pulled the engine thought the bearings were std, reassembled and a small knock when warmed up, come to find out G.M. would grind a crank to a odd undersize, and make a matching bearing to save a crank with a real slight flaw.   terry

[allfritz123]

Sorry I was not quite understood. It is the rod bearing journal (crank pin) not the block journal which had the spun shells.  I am going to pull the valve cover off my 1985 donor engine to see what the valve train looks like and verify it is a 4VH.  I am somewhere's around 2.980  inches on that crank pin.  Nominal OD is 2.998 inches.

I wished I could fit my 1985 engine into this truck.   A lot better design in intercooler!  I just need a little space in the front. I don't think the hood was redesigned between years other than markers different?  If cab and chassis are the same and the hood is same - why can't I get this other engine to fit? It looks tight.  My current engine has louvres on the front of the rad which I would discard.  The front intercooler bolts right on to the rad tight.  I just don't know....  

[fjh]

1 hour ago, allfritz123 said:

Sorry I was not quite understood. It is the rod bearing journal (crank pin) not the block journal which had the spun shells.  I am going to pull the valve cover off my 1985 donor engine to see what the valve train looks like and verify it is a 4VH.  I am some where's around 2.980  inches on that crank pin.  Nominal OD is 2.998 inches.

I wished I could fit my 1985 engine into this truck.   A lot better design in intercooler!  I just need a little space in the front. I don't think the hood was redesigned between years other than markers different?  If cab and chassis are the same and the hood is same - why can't I get this other engine to fit? It looks tight.  My current engine has louvres on the front of the rad which I would discard.  The front intercooler bolts right on to the rad tight.  I just don't know....  

Front after coolers came out early eighties The super liner was the first stab at it i believe  I think Mack was the first to introduce  them everything was 3 inch tube at that time!  but I could be wrong but Mack saw the benefit or air to air long before the rest of the pack  water to air was the media of choice for a lot of years! shortly after the superliner was introduced all other manufacturers started using the concept ! The tip turbine set up can be adapted to the 4 valve but would be labor intensive and if you add an engine brake there is a special adaptor to offset the turbine mount and would be scarce as hens teeth to find! 

[allfritz123]

I will get a picture of the valve cover Terry.  I am thinking I can adapt the tip turbine to the 4 valve.  I am curious why you would think it is labor intensive fjh?   I am going to try fit the tip turbine onto the donor engine. I can understand that it would be hard to adapt if the jake module was on top of the head _ I run out of room!  The donor engine I have has no jake.  Everything looks very similar space wise. I think I  measured 10 inches to the top of the valve cover on the 4valve? while the 2vh is 9ish inches. The difference being the head is thicker (6 1/2 inches?) but the cover is tapered and shorter and has bolts all the way around instead of 2 mid cover bolts (much better system!).  The taper should allow me to fit I believe.   I am going to make sure I can fit the box onto the other engine before going further.  The head itself on that 1985 engine is thicker and has the injectors side mounted while my old one has it vertical mounted on the head LHS.  The newer engine has bolts all the way around the cover and looks similar to my E7s from 1998 or 1999.

Exhaust manifold looks similar positioned. It looks like the air cooler top bolts will adapt right onto where the air cleaner was mounted for the other truck.  They have 3 holes tapped on the cylinder head bolts LHS and in the correct position already to mount it!   As long as I am not missing anything, I think I should be okay. 

The other thing which I see is that the front engine mount on my old engine sits in a saddle apparatus secured with 2 capscrews while the donor engine was flat vertical mounted with a frame.  I think that will unbolt and then the saddle will work on the new engine which has the rounded nose on it.

Thanks guys for all the tips.  I guess in order to get the old engine out I will have to put the transmission on a jack. and pull it back out of the way so I gain clearance on the bell housing to come out vertical?  Or would it be easier to open the front plate out and move forward?  Any ideas on what is the easier method.  That transmission is huge and I sure would not like to have to slide it back with airlines and all and sitting under the cab!  This is a first for me and the engine needs to come out to get the crankshaft out of it for repair.

 

 

[Geoff Weeks]

18 hours ago, fjh said:

Front after coolers came out early eighties The super liner was the first stab at it i believe  I think Mack was the first to introduce  them everything was 3 inch tube at that time!  but I could be wrong but Mack saw the benefit or air to air long before the rest of the pack  water to air was the media of choice for a lot of years! shortly after the superliner was introduced all other manufacturers started using the concept ! The tip turbine set up can be adapted to the 4 valve but would be labor intensive and if you add an engine brake there is a special adaptor to offset the turbine mount and would be scarce as hens teeth to find! 

Mack was indeed the 1st air to air charge cooler with the Tip turbine set-up. Front mounts required a re design of the engine bay/front of the truck, which is why engine mfg resisted it for as long as they did, it would limit what engine could be placed in a truck already on the market.

It is why Cummins went to"low flow" cooling, to allow better charge cooling without changing the front end of the truck. You could get a high HP Cummins in a truck that couldn't take a high HP Cat, because the Cat required an air to air over 400hp.

When the truck models got re-designed, the new designs all allowed room for air to air, and the "work arounds" like tip turbine and low flow cooling were quickly dropped in favor of the air to air in front of the radiator. Front mounts allow large surface area and are simple to cool, using the radiator fan, so when room was allotted for them in truck design, that is what everyone switched to.

 The Mack tip turbine was a very clever answer to the problem and compact.

As an engine mfg it is hard to sell an engine to a truck that would require special front end designs to take it, so work arounds were used. It was clear that front mount air to air was the future of all engines and when truck models were updated, room was allotted for the air to air.

[Licensed to kill]

A few things to consider if you are going to do an engine swap. First, as I recently found out, there is a significant enough difference between a "maxidyne" and "Econodyne" engine (their torque curve specifically) that they require different tranny's to perform properly. 5 or 6spd for the Max and 12 Spd or more for the Econo so unless you plan to change the trans also OR don't care about performance, make sure both the engine you are taking out and the one you are putting in are of the same series. Second, again, this is related to getting the best performance, you can not take an engine designed for an "up front" air to air and just put a tip turbine on it without changing injectors and likely the turbo. The "tip turbine" is less efficient and therefore will provide less air to the engine than what the injectors and turbo were designed for. It will run OK but you will likely be "rolling coal" as it will be overfueling to some extent and MAY run into EGT issues when pulling hard. 

[fjh]

8 hours ago, allfritz123 said:

I will get a picture of the valve cover Terry.  I am thinking I can adapt the tip turbine to the 4 valve.  I am curious why you would think it is labor intensive fjh?   I am going to try fit the tip turbine onto the donor engine. I can understand that it would be hard to adapt if the jake module was on top of the head _ I run out of room!  The donor engine I have has no jake.  Everything looks very similar space wise. I think I  measured 10 inches to the top of the valve cover on the 4valve? while the 2vh is 9ish inches. The difference being the head is thicker (6 1/2 inches?) but the cover is tapered and shorter and has bolts all the way around instead of 2 mid cover bolts (much better system!).  The taper should allow me to fit I believe.   I am going to make sure I can fit the box onto the other engine before going further.  The head itself on that 1985 engine is thicker and has the injectors side mounted while my old one has it vertical mounted on the head LHS.  The newer engine has bolts all the way around the cover and looks similar to my E7s from 1998 or 1999.

Exhaust manifold looks similar positioned. It looks like the air cooler top bolts will adapt right onto where the air cleaner was mounted for the other truck.  They have 3 holes tapped on the cylinder head bolts LHS and in the correct position already to mount it!   As long as I am not missing anything, I think I should be okay. 

The other thing which I see is that the front engine mount on my old engine sits in a saddle apparatus secured with 2 capscrews while the donor engine was flat vertical mounted with a frame.  I think that will unbolt and then the saddle will work on the new engine which has the rounded nose on it.

Thanks guys for all the tips.  I guess in order to get the old engine out I will have to put the transmission on a jack. and pull it back out of the way so I gain clearance on the bell housing to come out vertical?  Or would it be easier to open the front plate out and move forward?  Any ideas on what is the easier method.  That transmission is huge and I sure would not like to have to slide it back with airlines and all and sitting under the cab!  This is a first for me and the engine needs to come out to get the crankshaft out of it for repair.

 

 

With out an engine brake you will have no issue mounting the Tip turbine ! Just make sure the stud nuts or bolts to mount it are in the correct locations when installing the head bolt/ studs! The three that mount the bracket to hold the cooler box have to be located properly is all! 

[allfritz123]

4 hours ago, Licensed to kill said:

A few things to consider if you are going to do an engine swap. First, as I recently found out, there is a significant enough difference between a "maxidyne" and "Econodyne" engine (their torque curve specifically) that they require different tranny's to perform properly. 5 or 6spd for the Max and 12 Spd or more for the Econo so unless you plan to change the trans also OR don't care about performance, make sure both the engine you are taking out and the one you are putting in are of the same series. Second, again, this is related to getting the best performance, you can not take an engine designed for an "up front" air to air and just put a tip turbine on it without changing injectors and likely the turbo. The "tip turbine" is less efficient and therefore will provide less air to the engine than what the injectors and turbo were designed for. It will run OK but you will likely be "rolling coal" as it will be overfueling to some extent and MAY run into EGT issues when pulling hard. 

Well this truck is used on farm only to haul loads out of the field for the most part.  It already has been "rolling coal" since we got it a number of years ago!  Twice neighbours came over and wondered if we had a fire!  The pyrometer comes up rapidly and so you drive it with feel.  Lots of power for what we need and eye on the pyrometer always.  It looks like the puff limiter is still in place from intake to fuel injection and so I am not sure if it already was overfueling or that item was not working.  The only difference in the engine I have to put in is that it was set up for 300 hp  (1985 E6-300) while our old one is 1981 E6-285.  So I am not sure if that is significant difference in turbochargers although I will be using the old turbo and cooler box setup as the other turbo would not fit in the geometry.  I assume they are same series?  It isn't like we are putting a 350 in it.

I am sure this transmission is a maxitorque (maxitorque 10or12??) as it has triple countershaft and multiple reverse gears. It is a heavy transmission with 5 main gears (hi-low-reverse splitter to give 5 reversing gears) and and a low gear shift on the floor with no air shift on dash).  I saw another post that has that style of shift. I guess I would call it a 12 speed!

I am leaning to taking the engine out from the front.  I never had a chance to clean up the back end well before putting it into the shop and I will get quite a shower working under there.   Thoughts?

[terry]

Yeah that’s older style 12 spd. A real massive transmission.    Terry  I personally love that transmission!

Edited November 16, 2023 by terry

[allfritz123]

I finally got some pictures of the donor engine. I fit the cooler box onto it.  Is it a 4 valve?  I have just enough room for the cooler box to go onto the newer engine.  I have to make a new angle iron bracket to mount the cooler box onto the top of the cylinder heads.  However everything looks to fit.

I am going to remove the engine out the front so I don't have to move the big tranny and disturb the dirt!

[Joey Mack]

its a 4 valve

[JoeH]

Sounds like neither engine is a Maxidyne. A Maxidyne is noted as "EM6"-300. I would have thought in 1981 it would still have been an endt676. I guess it still is, they just changed the naming system at some point.

I'm not sure exactly how the puff limiter circuit is supposed to be plumbed, but I think it needs air coming from the air tanks, plus air coming from the intake manifold, and an airline going to the fuel pump.  People would often disable them just by plugging the supply airline from the tank I think. No real benefit other than faster turbo spool up, and making your neighbors come look for fire!

[allfritz123]

Thanks for confirming 4valve.  Is the valve lash the same for the 2 engines Intake .016, exhaust .024?   Both plates on the side of the block say this.   The sticker on the top of the valve cover on the 4 valve was unreadable.  It was also interesting to note that the E6-300 versus EM6-285 had HP ratings given at 1700 vs 2100 and timing 23 degrees versus 22 degrees BTDC.  They both have American Bosch pumps.  Initially we were looking at having someone rebuild the injection pump. Parts are no longer available but you can buy a factory reconditioned one for $7800 Cdn!  If we put in the donor engine, we will not bother to rip the other pump down.

I guess the 1981 was a Maxidyne because it says EM6? And the E6 is an Econodyne as LTK pointed out. I do have a 12 spd transmission so I should be good.

Edited November 17, 2023 by allfritz123
added clarification EM6 vs E6

[JoeH]

Yes the '81 is a Maxidyne. These are usually coupled to 6 or 7 speed trannies.  They make 90%+ of their torque from about 1100 rpms to their 2100 rpm governor, negating the need for lots of gears.

[doubleclutchinweasel]

Yes, the "M" indicated Maxidyne.

[mechohaulic]

12 hours ago, JoeH said:

Sounds like neither engine is a Maxidyne. A Maxidyne is noted as "EM6"-300. I would have thought in 1981 it would still have been an endt676. I guess it still is, they just changed the naming system at some point.

I'm not sure exactly how the puff limiter circuit is supposed to be plumbed, but I think it needs air coming from the air tanks, plus air coming from the intake manifold, and an airline going to the fuel pump.  People would often disable them just by plugging the supply airline from the tank I think. No real benefit other than faster turbo spool up, and making your neighbors come look for fire!

intake manifold has/had a 1/8th pipe plug to which puff limiter threaded on directly. 

[Macktruckman]

I’m sorry I’m late to the party and I’m glad you got the intake manifold bolts out. I have been into a couple of mine a couple times and those intake manifold bolts are an abomination. Lol. Bent some wrenches and used some curved ones like we’re shown. I removed the water/air tip turbine set up on my 285 2 valve in my 1978 R and I stole a front mounted CAC out of a 1988 doner truck and installed in front of my radiator. I was told I could not make it fit and close the hood but it does. It’s close to the hood but it does not touch. The modification I had to make was actual the piping. It wasn’t wide enough to fit down on both sides of the radiator. Almost but not quite. The intake and exit pipe kinda squeeze in so I sawed them off and swapped sides with them and tig welded them back so that now they kinda flare out and the cooler then fit around the radiator. I was able to use the piping and boots from the doner truck and I couldn’t be more pleased to be rid of that God forsaken tip turbine. I can post pictures if it would help. Just to clarify I put a charge cooler out of a 1988 R into a 1978 R. It is most definitely possible and not that hard. 
josh

[allfritz123]

On 11/24/2023 at 6:26 PM, Macktruckman said:

I’m sorry I’m late to the party and I’m glad you got the intake manifold bolts out. I have been into a couple of mine a couple times and those intake manifold bolts are an abomination. Lol. Bent some wrenches and used some curved ones like we’re shown. I removed the water/air tip turbine set up on my 285 2 valve in my 1978 R and I stole a front mounted CAC out of a 1988 doner truck and installed in front of my radiator. I was told I could not make it fit and close the hood but it does. It’s close to the hood but it does not touch. The modification I had to make was actual the piping. It wasn’t wide enough to fit down on both sides of the radiator. Almost but not quite. The intake and exit pipe kinda squeeze in so I sawed them off and swapped sides with them and tig welded them back so that now they kinda flare out and the cooler then fit around the radiator. I was able to use the piping and boots from the doner truck and I couldn’t be more pleased to be rid of that God forsaken tip turbine. I can post pictures if it would help. Just to clarify I put a charge cooler out of a 1988 R into a 1978 R. It is most definitely possible and not that hard. 
josh

I would love to see the pictures!  Did you have to change the radiator or was your old rad i the 78 compatible?   The radiator that is on the 1981 Mack has a huge reservoir tank bolted on the top and also contains water connection to the motor.   I tried the CAC I have and the tank is in the way . It is way too tall to go on top and too wide as the necking doesn't extend far enough.    My truck uses bracing extending to the  horizontal to the large tank which also has the upper water connection to the motor.  My donor CAC is necked as well and both outlets come over the top but it has to have a small radiator to fit under the hood.  I did see how the bracing was changed on the newer models and the hood roller was different on the cab end as well.  I didn't think I could make it fit!   Louvres definitely have to be removed from the front.  I wondered if the radiator itself needed to be less thick to keep the CAC under the hood or if there was hood changes in the later models? 

[allfritz123]

On 11/15/2023 at 5:53 AM, JoeH said:

How is the journal cap? If the bearing spun I imagine there would be some wear on the cap and block journal faces. Not sure if this will affect this engine's ability to be rebuilt. May need to pull the crank to mic the journal?

I pulled the rear journal cap and it plastigaged at .0035  (tolerance is .002-.005).  There were signs of copper on it peakingtowards its back end.  I plastigage  another connecting rod journal and it was also .0035 (upper tolerance on these is about .0044).   As I spun my shells on the #6 connecting rod,  it must have been wore?   I am at a loss as to why the engine failed.   Maybe the last rod journal is always the worst.  Oil pressure was always very good and likely at least 75 psi.  Startup pressure was more than 90 even with the failed shells.  The liners also appeared in good shape.  There was very little ridging and was only noticeable on the thrust side.  The engine never did use oil apart from parasitical loss. 

An update on the whiffer valve.  It was bypassed on this engine and hence why it rolled a lot of coal on turbo spool up.  The lines were in place as someone had put a plug internally in the line and then reattached it!

[Macktruckman]

I’ll try to take some pictures tomorrow and post them as soon as I can. I did use my radiator but I definitely had to toss all grill work. It’s close. Very close. But it does not touch my hood. I have a/c and bought a universal condenser and relocated it lower behind the bumper and put electric fans on the new condenser. We have an 81 R that is factory cac. It’s piping runs over the top of the radiator. I’m not sure that cooler would work with our radiators.  The 88 I stole the cooler from and installed on my 78 has the piping coming around the sides of the radiator and I did have to modify those but no big deal just need a welder for aluminum or a friend with such. I’ll try to get some pictures for you soon. 
Josh

[Macktruckman]

Oh and yes the hoods are a touch longer on the ones with cac. 

[JoeH]

These coolant lines on your engine mounted CAC are weird. Looked at my 1979 the other day, it doesn't have those.

[terry]

His has coolant water through it along with the air, yours is an older air only model.   Terry.