Any Chance of Mack Offering a Diesel Electric Hybrid Truck like Edison Motors?

[Mark T]

The Edison idea is like making a truck a tiny locomotive. It works, and makes sense.  I'm not gonna be knocking anyone over to get in line for one any time soon, but ???  Their idea is getting somewhere around 20 miles to a gallon ???  I'm not aware of any a$$hole particulate filter that in reality accomplished that.  Most guys don't stop to think, a loaded truck (@ 40 tons) doesn't require full power to keep it rolling along at highway speed 100% of the time.  Like the boy said..... "if you want guys interested in electirfication in trucks, give'm something that looks like a truck" 

[JoeH]

I'm a fan of Edison Motors, but they're going to lose out to someone who can do it bigger faster.  They are dragging their feet and want to grow very slow.  The industry wont wait for them.  They dont have a patent for the diesel-electric concept.  Someone else will come along and build their own diesel-electric design and put it into high production faster.  

I wouldn't use a Mack e6/e7 for a conversion, it's too big of a motor.  Realistically I'd bet a 12v or 24v 5.9 Cummins would be a gem of an engine to slap in a Mack, though it's a bit loud.  The whole concept is a small efficient motor recharges the batteries while the batteries provide the variable torque needed to handle the differing power demands of the road.  A Mack E7 wouldnt be worth the extra weight when a motor 1,000 lbs lighter could do the job.

Their logging test they just ran maxed out at I think 400 amp draw accelerating while they have access to 750+ amps. A 1.5L Cummins Onan generator puts out about 50 amps of juice. 5.9L is basically 4 of these, so I'd estimate a 5.9L Cummins should put out 200amps of recharge, which should handle a big rig reasonably.  And it would leave me engine clearance in my RD688 to put one of their powered steer axles in, giving me 6x6 drive! 

[JoeH]

I'm a fan of Edison Motors because they're the first logical electric innovation in trucking. 

[fjh]

But as for Mack or Volvo doing it NOPE they had to use a Cummins in the md cause they didn’t want to build a smaller engine!

[JoeH]

The Edison Motors Retrofit opens up some interesting options. Smaller engine/generator combo means you could run PG Adams frame rails on an older Mack. You'd need to do some front end bracket modification to swap in a different brand steer axle suspension.  Hood/cab mounts and you're rolling.

[Geoff Weeks]

1 hour ago, JoeH said:

 

Their logging test they just ran maxed out at I think 400 amp draw accelerating while they have access to 750+ amps. A 1.5L Cummins Onan generator puts out about 50 amps of juice. 5.9L is basically 4 of these, so I'd estimate a 5.9L Cummins should put out 200amps 

 

I saw the video a while back but don't think they are running the low voltages you are talking about the Cummins generator making.

They are likely drawing 400 amps at 400 volt DC or could even be 800 VDC. That is a whole different ball game.  A lot more power.

 The 5.9 has been used in yard goats, but even there speed is limited.

[Mark T]

1 hour ago, JoeH said:

The Edison Motors Retrofit opens up some interesting options. Smaller engine/generator combo means you could run PG Adams frame rails on an older Mack. You'd need to do some front end bracket modification to swap in a different brand steer axle suspension.  Hood/cab mounts and you're rolling.

Not trying to be a smart ass, did you ever read about them ?  That's exactly what they do to older trucks. ( IDK about PG Adams rails ) They rebuild older trucks from the ground up with the diesel electric conversion. From what I understand that way regulations with them are more relaxed for an existing truck.  These dudes have a pretty interesting history, along with some common sense ideas. 

[JoeH]

29 minutes ago, Mark T said:

Not trying to be a smart ass, did you ever read about them ?  That's exactly what they do to older trucks. ( IDK about PG Adams rails ) They rebuild older trucks from the ground up with the diesel electric conversion. From what I understand that way regulations with them are more relaxed for an existing truck.  These dudes have a pretty interesting history, along with some common sense ideas. 

No offense taken, I'm aware they are planning to run a Retrofit option.  Not sure how fast they're getting it up and running. I know on pickups they're trying to work with third party shops to run installs. Hopefully they can scale their business fast enough to get a strong bite into the industry. Hopefully they can get their heavy truck retrofits rolling, but I've heard them say they only want to make a handful of trucks to start out with testing in mining and logging.  It makes sense, but they're going to need to make sure they're prepping to scale their production to start making these beasts. 

[JoeH]

1 hour ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I saw the video a while back but don't think they are running the low voltages you are talking about the Cummins generator making.

They are likely drawing 400 amps at 400 volt DC or could even be 800 VDC. That is a whole different ball game.  A lot more power.

 The 5.9 has been used in yard goats, but even there speed is limited.

Electrical is by far my weakest knowledge base.  My 12v Cummins is rated around 180hp. Could run a 6.7L as well, I think you'd be fine doing dump truck work with either.  I'd bet there's enough "idling" time in that line of work that the generator could pump some juice into the batteries.

They're also moving 145,000 lb loads with Topsy on I believe a 9.0L CAT engine. Albeit downhill loaded, uphill empty. I still think a 5.9 or 6.7 could be up to the task of moving triaxles around.

Edited September 30 by JoeH

[BOBWhite]

If a company wanted to put out a hybrid semi truck they probably would have done something like it already. My guess is they already put so much effort and development into making fully electric trucks that they don't even want to bother with the hybrid system. The only other company that made serious attempts that I know of is Eaton but their system was quite a bit different than Edisons system and its been more then 10 years since they last ran a promotion. 

Here's an example from the 80s made by Briggs And Stratton:

 

[Joseph Cummings]

If they are going to electrify at all, the only way it's going to work is diesel-electric hybrid. People have the impression that they can go to Home Depot and buy electrical supplies, amd find an empty space in their breaker panel and that would be enough to charge an electric class-8 truck.

In reality for even a small fleet you are going to need a 1,000 KVA pad mount transformer installed at your facility. If you wanted one next week, you need to get a time machine and go back to the year 2020 and start planning. The customer side of that transformer would be a 1,204 amp, 480 volt, three phase circuit. Just to put it in perspective, I've worked on emergency generators for the City of Philadelphia that were rated One Megawatt. They were powered by a 16v92 twin turbo 2 stroke Detroit. Roughly 1,500 horsepower. If you were in the enclosure doing tests and you had it under load you could feel your bones vibrating and after like 5 minutes your teeth started to itch.

Most places don't even have that much power coming down the street, you are talking about having to do upgrades all the way back to the substation. And lots of substations can't handle it and will need upgrades. Pepsi Sacramento's substation had to be upgraded to charge those Teslas. It took them 3 years to get the power.

I could go on and on with the problems. The six pulse rectification to turn the AC into DC creates 5th and 7th harmonics on the powerlines that doesn't end at the property line, it effects other power company customers. The people making these mandates and regulations are way way out of their league.

BTW here is what the American Trucking Association has to say about it

 

[mrsmackpaul]

I dunno were or what your doing, I  do however work in power generation and regularly work on 66,000 volt 100 MW transforms and beside under and around them while they are energized and under full load, never make any of me vibrate 

Worked 500 MW turbines and yes I can feel them, I  do feel it is the 300 ton spinning right beside me that I can feel and not the electricity 

Was HV switching this morning without vibrating 

So either I'm vibration proof or electricity is different on the other side of the world 

 

Paul

[Joseph Cummings]

25 minutes ago, mrsmackpaul said:

I dunno were or what your doing, I  do however work in power generation and regularly work on 66,000 volt 100 MW transforms and beside under and around them while they are energized and under full load, never make any of me vibrate 

Worked 500 MW turbines and yes I can feel them, I  do feel it is the 300 ton spinning right beside me that I can feel and not the electricity 

Was HV switching this morning without vibrating 

So either I'm vibration proof or electricity is different on the other side of the world 

 

Paul

That was from the 16v92 Detroit Diesel running under load. Have you ever been near one running? They make some serious noise 1t 1800RPM under load no matter if they are driving a generator, a pump or whatever

And yeah I work on medium voltage switchgear now and again too. Most of the larger plants here have 69KV primary power dropping down to 12.5KV on the secondary side of padmount, and then down to 277/480 close to where the power is utilized. I've never felt it, and I hope I never do

[mrsmackpaul]

Dunno about 16V92, have been around plenty of big GM 2 stroke stuff in quarry's and the like, never been a die hard fan of them like every second person seems to be today

Saying that I don't recall anything vibrating except my ears 

I think they are still ringing

 

Paul

[tjc transport]

16V92 in nothing against the 16V149.

you can hear one of them under load from damn near a mile away!!!

[Joseph Cummings]

Yeah North American Engines had a 149 powered generator in a trailer and it was pretty loud, but I didn't ever have to be inside with it running. Those two 16V at Philly Police Headquarters (Roundhouse) were in sea containers and being inside with them running made it all so much more intense.

Did you ever run a DA sander and it makes your hand itch because it's doing nerve damage? Well that is the same itch you feel in your teeth inside that sea can with a 16V running in it.

But that isn't the point. The point is that those electric class-8 trucks need that kind of power to charge. If you wanted to set up a generator powered charging station, you'd need a 16v92 powered generator to run it. That damn tesla Semi has a roughly one megawatt-hour battery pack. So to charge it in one hour you will need a one megawatt supply. Have a location that you need 10 charging points, and you need a 10 megawatt supply, a truck stop will need their own peaker plant. It's just totally unworkable

[mrsmackpaul]

I dunno about your math, a lot depneds on how long the time is going to be for recharging 

 

Paul

[Joseph Cummings]

53 minutes ago, mrsmackpaul said:

I dunno about your math, a lot depneds on how long the time is going to be for recharging 

 

Paul

Well if you are going to charge a one megawatt hour capacity battery pack in one hour, you need one megawatt of supply. If you want to do it in 2 hours you need 500 kilowatts. And I'm not even figuring on losses. Basically a 1200 amp 480 volt three phase circuit to every charger. And the damn chargers must have a transformer in them, so now you have a problem with "low lagging power factor". And they also have to have rectification to turn the AC into DC. so there is going to be a problem with harmonics. Just like the problems with harmonics we are having in the plants now that all the motors are on VFDs. It distorts the sign wave all to hell. Large data centers have the same problem because of the rectification in the computer power supplies. It's a dam expensive problem to fix. And it's not a problem that is contained in your facility. It gets so bad that it affects the power company's distribution circuits. You might be causing a harmonic problem, and I'm 1/4 mile down the road, and all of a sudden my electric motors start overheating. There are just too many problems, and we are talking on a huge scale

[cruiseliner64]

I find this thread very interesting.I dont know much about electric generation but its plainly a very complex subject.Some of you may know already but I'm a locomotive driver in my day job.The locos we have are powered by EMD 12V710 driving an EMD AR 10 generator developing 25000 volts AC at 50Hz.This is then converted to 600 volts DC and fed to 6 traction motors,one on each axle of loco.The diesel engine is flat out at 950 RPM.Tick over is 150 RPM.The power controller has 8 positions each adding 100 RPM to the engine.I dont find the in cab noise too bad but in the engine room its a different story.

Paul

[Joseph Cummings]

11 minutes ago, cruiseliner64 said:

EMD 12V710

Is that the one that has the turbo with a clutch to spin it up mechanically for starting?

[cruiseliner64]

1 minute ago, Joseph Cummings said:

Is that the one that has the turbo with a clutch to spin it up mechanically for starting?

Yes,the turbo clutch cuts the turbos(theres two)out above 400 RPM.Works on oil pressure I'm told...

Paul

[Joseph Cummings]

6 minutes ago, cruiseliner64 said:

Yes,the turbo clutch cuts the turbos(theres two)out above 400 RPM.Works on oil pressure I'm told...

Paul

Yeah I don't have much experience with locomotives other than some little 44 ton units, and were all HB600 Cummins or Detroit diesel powered. Truck engines really.

My old employer had a thing for short lines. The "M" in SMS is for McHugh.

I use to move a lot of MOW equipment and Car movers like trackmobiles with my Trail King trailer

[cruiseliner64]

11 minutes ago, Joseph Cummings said:

Yeah I don't have much experience with locomotives other than some little 44 ton units, and were all HB600 Cummins or Detroit diesel powered. Truck engines really.

My old employer had a thing for short lines. The "M" in SMS is for McHugh.

I use to move a lot of MOW equipment and Car movers like trackmobiles with my Trail King trailer

Great pics.We had a small fleet of yard locos like those but were built by the railway company in their own shops.think they had Dortmann engines(German) but they were not a great sucess.They were before my time driving.The tilt and slide trailer is a nice bit of kit.Is that an R model hooked up to it? Yours?

Paul

[Joseph Cummings]

3 minutes ago, cruiseliner64 said:

Great pics.We had a small fleet of yard locos like those but were built by the railway company in their own shops.think they had Dortmann engines(German) but they were not a great sucess.They were before my time driving.The tilt and slide trailer is a nice bit of kit.Is that an R model hooked up to it? Yours?

Paul

LTL9000 Ford, Big Cam Cummins. Yeah It's mine, Sitting in in my garage right now