38/44 diffs Q

[Joey Mack]

GW.  I didnt research why the B Models I worked on had the inner seal, I just know that a good stemco seal on the inside did the trick. It modernized the ole; B-61..  and yes, when I replaced the rear wheel cyls in my ]48 KB-7, I used a modern wheel seal..  

[fjh]

3 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I agree, when we are talking about grease vs oil in the wheel bearings, but that kinda falls  apart when you make a set up that has one run in oil and the other in grease.

 Both greased and oiled bearings have proved successful. It took making a seal between the hub and spindle that could hold back oil in that environment. Once we had that, most elected for oil, just simpler and there is no doubt when you have a leak. 

 That still leaves the question why you would make the 1/2 step of one in grease and one in oil?

 Trailers and non driven hubs are going back to grease, (abet different grease than the 60's) and in some applications old grease is still preferred. 

 Driven axles have a problem others don't, you have to hold the oil back somewhere, in  the axle tube, at the outer end of the shaft or at the hub/spindle joint. It makes the choice less clear cut.

 When old wheel seals were felt or leather, there was little choice. Stemco came out with the 1st hub seal at the spindle (was still leather at 1st IIRC), but the wear surface was changed each time the hub was off. Rubber was used at the axle flange end as it was away from the brake heat, to keep the oil out of the bearing area.

 Some of the old felt/ leather seals can be replaced by modern unitized seals, but not all can, depends on how the hub end is constructed.

Well beauty is in the eye of the beholder! I personally swore off stemco years back after witnessing a lot of failures not due to poor installation! But to a trend! Now a days there are a lot of out board drums being used! When brake job is completed second time around the seal can look fine and not leaking! Lo and behold half way thru or less the next lining the seal takes out a perfectly good pair of shoes! Why? Because the dust and crap from the last brake job got into the seal! Just my observation! So if I have choice it will always be a voyager a cr or national style seal for me the leather seal is my last resort seal for a lose bearing on a spindle or situation where I can get the others!

just me!

[Geoff Weeks]

I only installed CR classic on my commercial stuff. You do know the "CR" stands for Chicago Rawhide don't you! Fel-pro is Felt products Corp.

 Unitized seals were a game-changer for the drive axles. Stemco's were more difficult to install, but they were the 1st "oil seal" for the hub area to come out as far as I know.

Unless I am mis-understanding what Mecho was saying, what he described was different then the old greased bearings with the oil seal at the axle flange end and the grease seal at the hub-spindle joint. How I understand what he is saying is the outer bearing ran in oil from the axle tube and the inner bearing was packed in grease. I have never seen that, but don't claim to have seen it all. 

 Your description of seals not lasting two brake jobs is why I never complained too much about inboard drums on spoke hubs.

 That said, I know a guy in Alaska who always pulled the hub/tires/drum as a unit, and on his own stuff slapped back together without changing the seals. He claimed the old Stemco leather seals could have that done and not leak, I was never brave enough to try it.

[Geoff Weeks]

BTW the oil fill plug on the rear in my K is lower down the housing from where the axle tube height is. Takes more work to make sure oil gets out to the hubs than modern axle housings. That and the fact that it sits most of the time make packed bearings better than oil, but that is unique to that trucks situation.  I still use a unitized seal at the hub, even with greased bearings.

[fjh]

4 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I only installed CR classic on my commercial stuff. You do know the "CR" stands for Chicago Rawhide don't you! Fel-pro is Felt products Corp.

 Unitized seals were a game-changer for the drive axles. Stemco's were more difficult to install, but they were the 1st "oil seal" for the hub area to come out as far as I know.

Unless I am mis-understanding what Mecho was saying, what he described was different then the old greased bearings with the oil seal at the axle flange end and the grease seal at the hub-spindle joint. How I understand what he is saying is the outer bearing ran in oil from the axle tube and the inner bearing was packed in grease. I have never seen that, but don't claim to have seen it all. 

 Your description of seals not lasting two brake jobs is why I never complained too much about inboard drums on spoke hubs.

 That said, I know a guy in Alaska who always pulled the hub/tires/drum as a unit, and on his own stuff slapped back together without changing the seals. He claimed the old Stemco leather seals could have that done and not leak, I was never brave enough to try it.

My problem would have been warranty in the pull and re install situation! To do it that way you have to have permission from the owner! I would have no problem doing it if I was asked or told to do it that way! Cr yup should have used better terminology!

[Geoff Weeks]

29 minutes ago, fjh said:

My problem would have been warranty in the pull and re install situation! To do it that way you have to have permission from the owner! I would have no problem doing it if I was asked or told to do it that way! Cr yup should have used better terminology!

CR and Fel-Pro were both old Chicago companies that made things from industrial cast-offs from the stockyard. Leather has always been used from water pump cups, to shaft seals, CR is now part of SKF.

 Felt was another product that had many uses.

[Joey Mack]

so who makes National seals..  to me they are just orange colored CR seals..  with the same part number in some case's, Ie:  370025A and 380025A..

[Geoff Weeks]

I don't know, companies are always buying eachother. 

CR numbers and National are different, or were a few years ago when I was getting them.

National used to be part of Bower bearing years ago, no idea who owns them now.

 CR classic seals have a metal exterior with boretite on the outside. The also market a rubber outside like National does under a different name "CR gold???" 

 Once you find something that works for you, you stick with it. For me, that was CR Classic.

Edited September 3 by Geoff Weeks

[Joey Mack]

Amen !! I have a decent set of stemco and CR seal drivers for wheel seals including the wear sleeve driver for stemco's.. I can install either brand with confidence.  definately stick with what has worked for years..  thanks GW..

[fjh]

1 hour ago, Joey Mack said:

Amen !! I have a decent set of stemco and CR seal drivers for wheel seals including the wear sleeve driver for stemco's.. I can install either brand with confidence.  definately stick with what has worked for years..  thanks GW..

Agreed!

[terry]

On 9/1/2024 at 7:58 PM, Geoff Weeks said:

Do you have a pictorial diagram of that? I've worked on plenty of greased wheel bearing/full floating axles, but never seen one with a seal between the inner and outer wheel bearing? I trying to imagine how that would work in practice, and I can't see why it would be done?  Either seal at the axle tube and grease the bearings, or let the oil spill and seal at the spindle.

 I've seen a few different ways used to keep oil off the bearings, but never one oil and one greased. 

I have run into that greased inner bearing, and oil outer bearing with the middle seal on a B model Mack, just eliminated the middle seal and a different inner seal, and was good to go,  terry

[Geoff Weeks]

Love to see a pictorial diagram of it as it is something I have not run across.  Couldn't have lasted too long as it wasn't common to come across.