My 1959 B61T restoration/modification build thread

[mowerman]

Out of likes for the day incase anyone cares lol bob

[Geoff Weeks]

Look at it like this:

Commercial is determined by the use, not the vehicle design. Taxi's are regular cars used in a commercial operation, if you went to register an ex-taxi for your car, there would be no problem getting passenger plates.

 RV's can be as big and as heavy as a hobby truck, and can tow a trailer of any size, have air brakes and everything that a truck has, and still be an RV.

 Then why is there a problem registering a "hobby truck? It is because 99.9% are used in a commercial enterprise, Almost the opposite of the taxi example.

From the outside, a hobby truck hauling hobby tractors, looks just like a commercial truck hauling tractors to the dealer. States see weight on the road, fuel tax not being collected and registration fees not being paid, when they see a hobby truck towing a trailer. Being able to shave the distinction between commercial and non commercial is a very hard distinction to write into the law, and unless it is differentiated, the powers that be will treat it as commercial.

ATHS has worked to make the difference be acknowledge. In practice, hobby trucks should be treated no different than RV's are. Unfortunately, it is rarely done that way.

[Mark T]

2 hours ago, Joseph Cummings said:

Yeah but if you work at the DMV you should at least know the more common manufacturers

I need to go to Harrisburg for a title. I'm not looking forward to it.

[Joseph Cummings]

18 minutes ago, Mark T said:

I need to go to Harrisburg for a title. I'm not looking forward to it.

What is your state rep like? I had a good one down in Bucks County Tommy Tomlinson and he had an aid in the office that straightened out a lot of PennDOT problems for me. Saved me a few trips to Harrisburg. Got me things back fast too. Best part was it was free.

Eddie Day Pashinski? Sounds Polish

District 121

Democrat, serving Luzerne County Hmmmmmmm, democrat

[wingrider]

2 hours ago, mowerman said:

Out of likes for the day incase anyone cares lol bob

I can’t either!  Out of them for the day.

Edited January 11 by wingrider

[wingrider]

2 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

Look at it like this:

Commercial is determined by the use, not the vehicle design. Taxi's are regular cars used in a commercial operation, if you went to register an ex-taxi for your car, there would be no problem getting passenger plates.

 RV's can be as big and as heavy as a hobby truck, and can tow a trailer of any size, have air brakes and everything that a truck has, and still be an RV.

 Then why is there a problem registering a "hobby truck? It is because 99.9% are used in a commercial enterprise, Almost the opposite of the taxi example.

From the outside, a hobby truck hauling hobby tractors, looks just like a commercial truck hauling tractors to the dealer. States see weight on the road, fuel tax not being collected and registration fees not being paid, when they see a hobby truck towing a trailer. Being able to shave the distinction between commercial and non commercial is a very hard distinction to write into the law, and unless it is differentiated, the powers that be will treat it as commercial.

ATHS has worked to make the difference be acknowledge. In practice, hobby trucks should be treated no different than RV's are. Unfortunately, it is rarely done that way.

Agree with you! Many folks have told me to turn my rig into an RV, and I wouldn’t have any trouble.  Not sure I want to do that.  
 

You mention a fuel tax, do truckers pay more for fuel to fill their truck vs me in my 2500 diesel?  Not fighting words, just curious of a person who doesn’t drive one.

[mowerman]

We  usually pay through  registration fees covering states you travel or if you’re not registered for state they want you to fuel there  or buy a day permit to run through 

[wingrider]

I’d like to like it, but I can’t today.  

[Mark T]

11 hours ago, Joseph Cummings said:

What is your state rep like? I had a good one down in Bucks County Tommy Tomlinson and he had an aid in the office that straightened out a lot of PennDOT problems for me. Saved me a few trips to Harrisburg. Got me things back fast too. Best part was it was free.

Eddie Day Pashinski? Sounds Polish

District 121

Democrat, serving Luzerne County Hmmmmmmm, democrat

This one shouldn't be a problem. Like you said, you can't assume anything. Like when they instruct you to fill in where it " axes " weights and such.

[tjc transport]

13 hours ago, Brocky said:

99&44/100 % of the DMV workers in all states DO NOT know what the laws actually are!!!!!!! They just go by what pops up on their computer screen. Contact the Public Relations officer for what ever department that the "Diesel Cops" work for and you can usually get the proper answers as they are the personnel working the scale houses and make the roadside stops. Get it in writing (printout) and take it to the DMV and say "this is what I need"!!!!!!! We are lucky to have such a person as a chapter member and he has straightened out several DMV offices.

so true. i tried registering a 2014 F250 for 10,999 lbs. the idiot behind the desk asked me why so much. my answer was because the truck weighs 8,200 pounds EMPTY. 

same with the new F150. DMV idiots put it at 5,000 pounds. 

the truck weighs 5,500 pounds empty. 

[cruiseliner64]

It's the same BS over here in Ireland.When I inported our Cruiseliner I first had to clear it through Customs which was no problem,then I had to take it to a vehicle registration office(VRO).There are 26 VROs in Ireland and lucky for me any VRO can be used.I took the truck to our local office and I was told I had the wrong UK title for the truck.On the UK title it said Mack Cruiseliner 6X4 tractor unit which the lady insisted was a farm tractor!!!! No amount of explaining would change her mind.When I said to her that Customs had no problem with the title she said "What would they know"....clearly more than she did🤣...after 6 week of wondering what to do I took it to the VRO in the next county and had the Irish title and reg number in 5 mins......It really depends on who you get....

Paul

[Geoff Weeks]

11 hours ago, wingrider said:

 

You mention a fuel tax, do truckers pay more for fuel to fill their truck vs me in my 2500 diesel?  Not fighting words, just curious of a person who doesn’t drive one.

Fuel tax and registration fee's differ state to state, so trucks that operate in many states have to "apportion" out the fees they pay to each state they travel in, by the % of total travel they do in a year.

There are federal programs to do this IRP and IFTA.

IRP Takes the total number of miles the truck is driven, and separates out each states total, then figures out the % of travel in each state, the truck is assessed that percent of that states yearly registration.

Fuel tax is done somewhat similar. When you fuel in that state, the pump price includes that states fuel tax. You then take the amount of miles driven in that state, using the adv MPG of the truck, you figure out how much tax is due the state you bought fuel in, the rest goes in a kitty to pay the other states, Since every state has a different tax rate, you will either owe the kitty or get a refund. You have to file quarterly fuel tax filings.

all this takes a weekend every quarter and another for plate renewal.

 I had a lap top in my trucks in later years, and a computer program to enter the days run, logbook, fuel purchases, and miles run in each state and routes used.

You have to keep paper records for years and can be audited at anytimes. 

[Joseph Cummings]

All these records , miles in states, splitting up my money, but yet I who might run 15,000 miles a year, pay the same registration fee as a JB Hunt truck that might run 150,000 miles a year

[Geoff Weeks]

12 minutes ago, Joseph Cummings said:

All these records , miles in states, splitting up my money, but yet I who might run 15,000 miles a year, pay the same registration fee as a JB Hunt truck that might run 150,000 miles a year

That is true of most all registrations, a car that drive 3000 mile/year pays the same as one that  does 100,000 miles. It is why the fuel tax exists, those that burn more (drive more/ move more weight) pay more.

[cruiseliner64]

54 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

Fuel tax and registration fee's differ state to state, so trucks that operate in many states have to "apportion" out the fees they pay to each state they travel in, by the % of total travel they do in a year.

There are federal programs to do this IRP and IFTA.

IRP Takes the total number of miles the truck is driven, and separates out each states total, then figures out the % of travel in each state, the truck is assessed that percent of that states yearly registration.

Fuel tax is done somewhat similar. When you fuel in that state, the pump price includes that states fuel tax. You then take the amount of miles driven in that state, using the adv MPG of the truck, you figure out how much tax is due the state you bought fuel in, the rest goes in a kitty to pay the other states, Since every state has a different tax rate, you will either owe the kitty or get a refund. You have to file quarterly fuel tax filings.

all this takes a weekend every quarter and another for plate renewal.

 I had a lap top in my trucks in later years, and a computer program to enter the days run, logbook, fuel purchases, and miles run in each state and routes used.

You have to keep paper records for years and can be audited at anytimes. 

Wow thats a complicated system.In the Europian union it doesnt matter what country you buy your fuel  or pay your road tax in.Even coming in from a country outside the EU your vehicle has to be taxed and insured in the country of origin..thats it.

Paul

[Geoff Weeks]

1 minute ago, cruiseliner64 said:

Wow thats a complicated system.In the Europian union it doesnt matter what country you buy your fuel  or pay your road tax in.Even coming in from a country outside the EU your vehicle has to be taxed and insured in the country of origin..thats it

It is and it isn't.

Compared to what came before, it simplified it greatly. Before you had to register separately for each state you drove it.

 Mostly it is handled by the trucking company. Leased O/O run company plates and IFTA, the company does all the filings and record keeping.

Those of us who were truly independent, ran under our own authority, had to do all the work ourselves or pay some service to do the work for us.

A large number of independents, and even some small trucking companies, used external services for this. I did my own, as if I am the one to be held liable for mistakes, I wanted them to be mine and not someone I paid to do it correctly.

 

[Joseph Cummings]

1 minute ago, Geoff Weeks said:

That is true of most all registrations, a car that drive 3000 mile/year pays the same as one that  does 100,000 miles. It is why the fuel tax exists, those that burn more (drive more/ move more weight) pay more.

Well my car registration is low enough that it doesn't bother me. My truck registration is close to 3,000 bucks now. I've even had years where I have claimed the under 5,000 mile exemption on my 2290. Lots of times I'm just doing stuff like loading someone else's trailers, with one of my forklifts and taking them back to my yard. Then someone else picks them up and takes them where they are going. I have no interest in OTR hauling, never did it, never owned a sleeper cab, never slept in a sleeper in my life.

Same goes the other way around. Lots of times I had trailer loads of structural steel dropped in my yard, and ran them out to the jobsite when they were needed, then decked the trailers, and brought them back to my yard

 

[Geoff Weeks]

Just pointing out that it never has been or will be "fair". Some states have or had "mileage based" plates. Illinois used to be one, don't know if it still is.

With those the plate came with a set "miles" (often a few thousand) and if you didn't use them up, that is all you paid, if you went over, you had to pay more.

 Mostly set up for special equipment that doesn't get used on the roads much, like well drillers etc. It allowed them to be driven to jobsites rather than trailering or paying the full registration amount for little use.

[Joseph Cummings]

21 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

Just pointing out that it never has been or will be "fair". Some states have or had "mileage based" plates. Illinois used to be one, don't know if it still is.

With those the plate came with a set "miles" (often a few thousand) and if you didn't use them up, that is all you paid, if you went over, you had to pay more.

 Mostly set up for special equipment that doesn't get used on the roads much, like well drillers etc. It allowed them to be driven to jobsites rather than trailering or paying the full registration amount for little use.

Like my NJ Code 56 Registration. I think they are 150 bucks for 10 plates. And no specific piece of equipment listed. No GVW either So all you have to do is bolt them on whatever you want to move that day.

Back in the day, guys in Philly would buy them, and run 5 heavy spec 10 wheel dumps on one pack of tags for 150  bucks. 1000 gallon tank of home heating oil at the yard, payroll done with envelopes full of cash, maybe half your drivers had licenses from Florida. It was a good time to be alive

Edited January 11 by Joseph Cummings

[Geoff Weeks]

In Illinois, it was a registration for a set vehicle, I don't remember all the specifics, I think a hub meter and bond were needed, but it has been decades since I looked into it.

[tjc transport]

1 hour ago, Joseph Cummings said:

Like my NJ Code 56 Registration. I think they are 150 bucks for 10 plates. And no specific piece of equipment listed. No GVW either So all you have to do is bolt them on whatever you want to move that day.

Back in the day, guys in Philly would buy them, and run 5 heavy spec 10 wheel dumps on one pack of tags for 150  bucks. 1000 gallon tank of home heating oil at the yard, payroll done with envelopes full of cash, maybe half your drivers had licenses from Florida. It was a good time to be alive

get caught running in transit tags now in Jersey and it is a BIG fine unless you are empty and moving from one site to another. 

a few years ago there was a contractor running transit tags on his snow plow trucks. trooper saw them, stopped them, and impounded all the trucks for working with transit tags.

[Joseph Cummings]

14 minutes ago, tjc transport said:

get caught running in transit tags now in Jersey and it is a BIG fine unless you are empty and moving from one site to another. 

a few years ago there was a contractor running transit tags on his snow plow trucks. trooper saw them, stopped them, and impounded all the trucks for working with transit tags.

I use mine for, compressors, generators, pumps, storage trailers, office trailers, stuff like that. But back in the day I saw them on all kinds of stuff. I remember a big ready mix company near Trenton who had them on half their mixers

Edited January 11 by Joseph Cummings

[Geoff Weeks]

I found Iowa fairly easy to work with. They, at least, separate out the "commercial" interstate stuff to one center in the middle of the state.

You can do it all "on line" and are willing to help if you call them on the phone.

In state stuff at the county courthouse is a different story, many times I know more then they do, and when I run into a conflict suggest that "we be safe and check with Ankeny", more than a few times they had to concede I was correct after calling the state truck center.

On the downside, you had to register your truck for the maximum weight, and couldn't just "permit" the extra weight when you needed to move over legal. Michigan was the same. It meant I had to carry 160,001lb on my plate all the time in those two states. Any move over that weight would incur more tax, but were considered super loads.

[Joseph Cummings]

7 minutes ago, Geoff Weeks said:

I found Iowa fairly easy to work with. They, at least, separate out the "commercial" interstate stuff to one center in the middle of the state.

You can do it all "on line" and are willing to help if you call them on the phone.

In state stuff at the county courthouse is a different story, many times I know more then they do, and when I run into a conflict suggest that "we be safe and check with Ankeny", more than a few times they had to concede I was correct after calling the state truck center.

On the downside, you had to register your truck for the maximum weight, and couldn't just "permit" the extra weight when you needed to move over legal. Michigan was the same. It meant I had to carry 160,001lb on my plate all the time in those two states. Any move over that weight would incur more tax, but were considered super loads.

When I was about 22 or 23 I ran a superload all the way from Parkersburg WV, back to the eastern part of Pa on a big bad A Car 9964 with a 318 Detroit without any permits, because I figured I was on 8 axles and it was a weekend, so it wasn't a big deal lol.

[wingrider]

On 1/11/2025 at 9:11 AM, Geoff Weeks said:

Fuel tax and registration fee's differ state to state, so trucks that operate in many states have to "apportion" out the fees they pay to each state they travel in, by the % of total travel they do in a year.

There are federal programs to do this IRP and IFTA.

IRP Takes the total number of miles the truck is driven, and separates out each states total, then figures out the % of travel in each state, the truck is assessed that percent of that states yearly registration.

Fuel tax is done somewhat similar. When you fuel in that state, the pump price includes that states fuel tax. You then take the amount of miles driven in that state, using the adv MPG of the truck, you figure out how much tax is due the state you bought fuel in, the rest goes in a kitty to pay the other states, Since every state has a different tax rate, you will either owe the kitty or get a refund. You have to file quarterly fuel tax filings.

all this takes a weekend every quarter and another for plate renewal.

 I had a lap top in my trucks in later years, and a computer program to enter the days run, logbook, fuel purchases, and miles run in each state and routes used.

You have to keep paper records for years and can be audited at anytimes. 

Thank you for that explanation!  Makes a lot more sense now that it is laid out that way.  I do recall looking at semi’s as a kid, and seeing a whole bunch of licensee plates on their rig.  Never had anyone I could ask about it.   Makes a lot more sense.