other dog Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 I watched a very interesting 20 minute video comparing different fuel conditioners on YouTube this morning. Surprising too, some I'd never heard of did very well, while other more popular brands did rather poorly. The video is well worth watching, but here's the gist of it- This test was cetane rating- This was the lubricity test- Anti-gel test- I don't remember this one, but all the fuel was frozen for 24 hours at -38 degrees fahrenheit then treated. And this was the final test results- 2 Quote Producer of poorly photo-chopped pictures since 1999. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Horse Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 One thing I would add, CFPP is a critical test (cold filter plug Point). Testing frozen fuel -wax - is a waste. You want to treat fuel Before it starts to build wax. Once you have wax, kero is best to add, that is if you can find anyone who sells kerosine. Best bet, buy your fuel from a good source that for sure has diesel that has been treated at the terminal. And don't depend on straight N0. 2 heating oil. Some will say only thing between heating oil and diesel is that heating oil is dyed red to avoid tax cheaters using it on road. That is true, but good "road diesel" or "Off Road-dyed diesel will have cold flow additives in it. 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-565787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Heinz Posted January 8 Share Posted January 8 Bet you watched Project Farm's video, I saw it pop up but haven't watched it yet. He's usually really good at these tests, it made me confident in the oil I was using for my Hemi. I've heard Hot Shots being recommended around here, seems for a good reason. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-565790 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowerman Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 Just spotted this thanks for that Tom Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566442 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted January 14 Share Posted January 14 my take is: If I am going to put my life on the line going out in the real cold, I am going to properly outfit the truck. Never gelled even running at -35F Warm fuel doesn't gel. I had driver controlled, coolant type, fuel heater that I could turn on or off on the fly. I had an electric block heater for cold starts I had an Espar coolant heater for heat while parked overnight on the road. I would never trust my life to an additive. I have pumped "slushy" diesel (diesel that came out of the pump already starting to gel) into my tank and driven on, Would you do that with additives? It costs money to properly outfit a truck, but the money is paid back in spades not paying for a tow. 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566443 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjc transport Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 we normally do not run fuel conditioner as we buy premium pre treated fuel. but i do have 2 cases of Howes in the fluids container, and a couple of gallons of power service 911. 1 Quote when you are up to your armpits in alligators, it is hard to remember you only came in to drain the swamp.. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566450 Share on other sites More sharing options...
mowerman Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Yeah, I’ve never had a problem with my life with diesel fuel, but I’ve always worked for a company’s that had the additive in the fuel already before we put it in. I think Tom was mainly talking about generator conditions when I get one I’m going to do like Joey suggested drained the gasoline end of a season and put it in the pick up. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tjc transport Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 only truck i ever had winter cold start problems with was a 77 GMC with a 6V71 detroit. but mixing 1 gallon regular gas to 10 gallons diesel solved that problem. i learned that trick on the farm with the diesel tractors. they would drop 1,000 gallons diesel in the under ground tank, and i would fire up the gas pump and run the hose to the diesel fill neck and pump 100 gallons gas in the diesel tank. 1 Quote when you are up to your armpits in alligators, it is hard to remember you only came in to drain the swamp.. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566458 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post tjc transport Posted January 15 Popular Post Share Posted January 15 Just now, tjc transport said: only truck i ever had winter cold start problems with was a 77 GMC with a 6V71 detroit. but mixing 1 gallon regular gas to 10 gallons diesel solved that problem. i learned that trick on the farm with the diesel tractors. they would drop 1,000 gallons diesel in the under ground tank, and i would fire up the gas pump and run the hose to the diesel fill neck and pump 100 gallons gas in the diesel tank. i would not try that today though with the computerized diesel engines. 3 Quote when you are up to your armpits in alligators, it is hard to remember you only came in to drain the swamp.. Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocky Posted January 15 Share Posted January 15 Back in the 70's when I drove for Matlack hauling for AGWAY farm suppply we blended any where between 25% to 50%, depending on weather and distributor specs, kero and #2 fuel in one hole barrel trailers while loading. 2 Quote Brocky Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566462 Share on other sites More sharing options...
davehummell Posted Wednesday at 11:38 AM Share Posted Wednesday at 11:38 AM Back in time guys would run kero and add automatic tranny oil for lubing the injection pumps for over thirty years I always added the power service treatment at fillups. It was a great leap forward with airdryers and heated fuel filters. I always dreaded Monday morning getting the trucks and equipment running after setting all day Sunday and around zero in the morning when I showed up for work. 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566472 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted Wednesday at 12:44 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 12:44 PM Heat exchangers for heating fuel have always been around, while they may have not been common. I have an antique engine heater from the 20's? 30?'s. Motorola and Stewart-Warner have made combustion heaters since the 30's and 40's at least. Hot Box coolant heaters used to be a thing. The solutions have been around since trucks started switching from gas power to diesel. What has changed is the J-I-T "got to be there" nature of trucking. Gelling has been known about since before diesel trucks. The willing to properly address the problem and pay the price to do so has always been the weak point that brings down the "system". Running in -35F in rural Mt, and being one of 2 trucks on a lonely stretch of of road, vapor trails running 1/2 mile or more behind the truck, you get to value the time and money spent on being prepared. The other truck had Alaska plates! All others didn't try or didn't make it far from the truckstop. 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566474 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocky Posted Wednesday at 02:39 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 02:39 PM Geoff, Been there, done that!!!! Hauling potatoes out of upcounty Maine... 1 Quote Brocky Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566482 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Horse Posted Wednesday at 05:05 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 05:05 PM 14 hours ago, Brocky said: Back in the 70's when I drove for Matlack hauling for AGWAY farm suppply we blended any where between 25% to 50%, depending on weather and distributor specs, kero and #2 fuel in one hole barrel trailers while loading. For sure that was the best practice in the old days. In spite of the fact that the more kero in the blend the less BTU's (power) you got out of a gallon. The good diesel additives today, contain more than just components that improve winter performance. They have components like lubricity improvers for good pump life, "detergents" etc. But best practice is the fuel has to be additized BEFORE the wax forms. Think of the wax as molecules with rough edges/corners- they interlock. What good additives do is turn those molecules into small "bb's"-they roll instead of locking up. Very few terminals today even have kero-at least here in Northeast. And Brocky you date yourself..you had to know some math back then to figure how much of each you put into each compartment-today unless you are loading at some "gypsy" terminal, loading racks today are computerized and the blended fuels are bottom loaded- with additives and or kero or both. And I'm with you -top loading in the wind in upstate NY😎 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566497 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brocky Posted Wednesday at 05:51 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 05:51 PM 43 minutes ago, Red Horse said: And I'm with you -top loading in the wind in upstate NY😎 AGWAY's Fuel oil depot right on the river in Odgensburg!!!!!!!! When the thermometer on the side of the rack said 28 below and God only knows what the wind chill factor was across the frozen St. Lawrence????? 2 Quote Brocky Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566502 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Cummings Posted Wednesday at 05:59 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 05:59 PM I've never seen a truck or piece of equipment with "Gelled" fuel. I've heard lots of drivers and mechanics BS cockamainy stories about tanks full of stuff that looked like grease and other shit. But every time I get there i find water or ice. I'm sure gelling happens somewhere, but not in any of the areas I've operated in. I've poured sloppy water out of filters right in front of them and they still keep saying "gel" like it's the only word they know. After doing this full time for 50 years, and slaving for family in a garage for the first 14 years of my life, I've come to the conclusion that about 87 percent of truck drivers and mechanics are dumber than a box of rocks, and big time liars 2 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566504 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted Wednesday at 06:20 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 06:20 PM (edited) Cold enough and the waxy components in diesel start to solidify. Looks and feels like "fish eggs" Water will turn to ice and be hard. You'll not solve a water problem with heat. I've had bulk fuel people say the same, but when you can strip it off a filter element and feel the waxyness, it isn't moisture. They say that to shift the blame on the person storing the fuel. So I guess we are talking about the difference between "cloud point" and solidifying. If you had enough water in a fuel filter to plug it, apply enough heat to melt it the slug of water would blow tips off injectors. True "gelling" is when the fuel in the tank all turns to "jello" but cloud point is when the waxy components start to drop out and stick together. JC I heard enough of people say what you do, but have never heard them explain why fuel at 20 deg doesn't have this "ice" they claim but does when the fuel is at -20! Fuel and water don't mix! True gelled fuel is below the pour point, and that is rare, but in popular using of the term "gelling" is anytime the fuel is below the cloud point. It is hysterical listening to a fuel distributor try and explain why his "ice" only shows up 52 deg below the freezing point of water! Edited Wednesday at 06:51 PM by Geoff Weeks Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566507 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Cummings Posted Wednesday at 07:21 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 07:21 PM Yeah there is cloud point, and there is pour point. Your fuel supplier will supply you with those temperatures if you ask. But I get guys who claim their truck shut down while running for hours in 20 degree weather, and that they looked in the tank and saw "jello". And I get there and the primary filter is all bound up with water. I don't know about now, but years ago "anti-gel" additives didn't treat for water (I've never bought the stuff). If I treat for water, and add a little biocide to prevent the algae I never have a problem. Actually without water contamination the algae will never get started as it lives in the interface. I don't know why none of them can't grasp it, it's pretty simple. I think it's because they are allergic to reading or something and they just go with a story some clown in a truck stop told them because he had a drop visor, low hanging bumper and a gazillion chicken lights (That makes him the wisest one) But anyway, 64 years on this earth, and grew up in a garage family, and I've yet to see this "jello" that they all think happens. It just doesn't get anywhere near cold enough around here for the fuel to get below the "pour point" Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566512 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted Wednesday at 07:39 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 07:39 PM I was working at a construction equipment rental house, we had our own above ground fuel storage tank, We ordered "winterized" fuel, was supposed to be mixed #1 and #2 to cloud free to -25 or so. Makes for a long day running around sorting out equipment with plugged filters! When the sales person showed up trying to tell me it was "ice" I dipped a tank on a piece of equipment that had sat in the yard overnight, and you could see the "fish eggs". No,it can't be water, that would have frozen and would be at the bottom of the tank. Duetz's did fairly well once you got them started, the fuel filter is on the same casting as the oil filter, and that transferred enough heat to the fuel filter. They were fairly hard to get going, however. Measured shot ether systems were our solution. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted Wednesday at 08:05 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:05 PM Not sure if im in the 13%, hood chance im not,, but in my short 25 years in trucking and repair, i dont recall gelled fuel, just water in the filters that froze, and caused issues.. some old timers i worked with would put K-1 in the tanks for easier starting.. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566526 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted Wednesday at 08:22 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:22 PM 9 minutes ago, Joey Mack said: Not sure if im in the 13%, hood chance im not,, but in my short 25 years in trucking and repair, i dont recall gelled fuel, just water in the filters that froze, and caused issues.. some old timers i worked with would put K-1 in the tanks for easier starting.. If your talking true "jell" where it is below the pour point, then no I have not seen that either, although I do know some running north of the 48th parallel that have. If it truly jelled than the fuel pump will not move jell, but it will move clouded fuel, where the paraffin has started to precipitate out. What I am talking about is not ice, it is wax or a waxy substance that will plug a fuel filter. Any water will form ice when the temp drops below freezing, water and fuel don't combine to lower the freeze point of water. Water in the fuel is a problem at any temperature, not just below freezing. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566529 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted Wednesday at 08:32 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:32 PM Yes sir, i have seen cloudy fuel as well.. i didnt sample it, my job was to get the trucks off the side of the road... New filters and crossed fingers, on off you go.. I worked in Maine for many years so I have been in sub zero weather at night on the side of the road a few times.. thats all i got, nothin exciting... Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566531 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Weeks Posted Wednesday at 08:48 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:48 PM Here are two links that somewhat discuss cloud point, one from a fuel refiner, the other from the state of Colorado, both mention wax as the cause not moisture: https://ops.colorado.gov/sites/ops/files/2021-01/diesel_analysis_and_specifications.pdf https://www.cenex.com/expert-advice-and-insights/cold-weather-diesel-problems Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566533 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joseph Cummings Posted Wednesday at 08:54 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:54 PM 43 minutes ago, Joey Mack said: Not sure if im in the 13% Yeah you're a 13%er Should get a 13%er patch made op kinda like these guys with their 1% 1 Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566534 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Mack Posted Wednesday at 08:56 PM Share Posted Wednesday at 08:56 PM I try.. I also try not to act like I know, if i really dont.. i dont mind not knowing, i like learning.. Quote Link to comment https://www.bigmacktrucks.com/topic/74971-fuel-conditioner/#findComment-566535 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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