The last cruiseliner in the uk

[Geoff Weeks]

It is an SAE J180 mount, and should take any alternator made for that.

I've had many that just quit, enough of them that I don't use the JB anymore.

Used to be able to get an external regulator adaptor for them, last time I saw one it was expensive, but you could make one easy enough.

Rectifiers are rarely the problem, newer one are ac triggered regulator and don't use a trio.

If I were buying new it would be brushless, Denso, Delco, Electrodyne and others all make brushless.

 Electrodyne is a brushless clone of the JB L/N, but haven't seen one in donkeys years.

[Geoff Weeks]

I'm partial to the 25SI myself, but it is a big lump for its output rating (75-85 amp)

[Joseph Cummings]

What I liked with the LN JB alternators was I could have a couple of rebuilt ones on the shelf and it would work for both pos and neg ground trucks

[Geoff Weeks]

Motorola, Prestolite and L/N are all the same company now. All produced "case neutral" alternators that could be used on either polarity.

 For a shop or service truck, it makes sense to carry one that can meet most of the needs, regardless of if it is the best or not. Sometimes when switching types (brush vs brushless) different pulleys are needed to increase the rotating parts speed.  For example my cabovers could be had with either the L/N or the Delco 25SI but the pulley called for was a different size for each. The L/N had a bigger (slower) pulley than the Delco.

Stocking for my needs, I buy what I think best suits those needs.

To be honest, I haven't run across a 12 volt positive ground truck in donkeys years. Esp with LED and ABS controllers on the trailers now, negative ground has become the norm. Better LED and I suspect all ABS equipped trailers will have a full wave bridge rectifier in them to isolate the electronics from the vehicle chassie, so they can be towed by an older truck. The need for + ground stuff has mostly gone from the vehicle market.

All my 6 volt stuff is positive ground, but that is it. I have an early 100 amp 6 volt L/N I am restoring thanks to member of another board. They were made in the 40's.

Edit: We don't know if his truck is 12 or 24 volt, not that it matter much as all mfg make 24 volt stuff as well, often only the field and regulator are different.

Edited February 9 by Geoff Weeks

[cruiseliner64]

9 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

Motorola, Prestolite and L/N are all the same company now. All produced "case neutral" alternators that could be used on either polarity.

 For a shop or service truck, it makes sense to carry one that can meet most of the needs, regardless of if it is the best or not. Sometimes when switching types (brush vs brushless) different pulleys are needed to increase the rotating parts speed.  For example my cabovers could be had with either the L/N or the Delco 25SI but the pulley called for was a different size for each. The L/N had a bigger (slower) pulley than the Delco.

Stocking for my needs, I buy what I think best suits those needs.

To be honest, I haven't run across a 12 volt positive ground truck in donkeys years. Esp with LED and ABS controllers on the trailers now, negative ground has become the norm. Better LED and I suspect all ABS equipped trailers will have a full wave bridge rectifier in them to isolate the electronics from the vehicle chassie, so they can be towed by an older truck. The need for + ground stuff has mostly gone from the vehicle market.

All my 6 volt stuff is positive ground, but that is it. I have an early 100 amp 6 volt L/N I am restoring thanks to member of another board. They were made in the 40's.

Edit: We don't know if his truck is 12 or 24 volt, not that it matter much as all mfg make 24 volt stuff as well, often only the field and regulator are different.

Our Cruiseliner is 12V Neg ground.Nathans truck is from the same batch and is also 12V..Maybe you guys would know but Iv been told when new they were supplied with 4 6V batterys.would that be right? Over this side of the world the last vehicle I can think of that had a 6V battery was a VW Beatle and some motorbikes...

Paul

[Joey Mack]

That can be true, 4-6v batts can be series to make either 12/18/or 24 volts.. those batts have good amps...  ( Work load). 

[mrsmackpaul]

2 x 6 volt batteries is very common and even on air start Macks, was normal in Australia 

Batteries in parallel are no good and unreliable in most applications 

I think 24 volt start or maybe Europe had 24 volt lights etc like Japanese trucks

Before L.E.D. lights a lot of road trains ran 24 volt lights to keep the amps down, in this case 4 x 6 volt batteries would be the norm

Or 24 volt starter motors a series parrallel switch is the go and 4 x 6 volt batteries 

 

Paul

 

 

[Geoff Weeks]

The main reason for 4 six volts, was at that time there were no 12 volt batteries with enough cranking amps to start a big bore diesel.  It had to do with plate construction techniques. You need between 1600 to over 2000 cranking amps @ 12 volt (1/2 that at 24 volt) to start a big diesel.

 It wasn't until new construction methods made thin plates (and therefor more plates in the same container) that allowed for the 900-1000 cranking amp 12 volt batteries. Gp 31

As to series vs parallel, it makes no difference, all batteries are made up of 2.2 volt cells in series. paralleling just makes the plate area bigger. Inside each cell in the single battery are multiple plates all in parallel to make more surface area.  So a single battery is made up of cells with both series and parallel connections.

anything in series is limited to its weakest link, so a bad cell or connection at one battery takes the whole string down. If the total area of cells are spread among differing cell containers (batteries) then one cell bad will take that series string out but another series path still remains.

4 twelve volts in parallel, have 4 sets of parallel connection for 12 volt start. 4 six volts for 24 volt start has 8 series connections, so any one of them is bad and you have no cranking. In the 12 volt parallel, and one bad connection reduces the cranking amps by 1/4.

No one system is better than the other, all do a good job, the one with more connections need more maintenance to keep it working correctly. 

High amp connections are harder to maintain than lower amp connections. Which is why 24 cranking was used for many years, and is still used in many applications.

 It is why I like the Maxwell, it reduces the number of connections, and if a 24 volt unit is used, the current is low as well when compared to 12 volt cranking. It has only 4 high current connections 2 at the starter and 2 at the unit itself.

 

Edited February 10 by Geoff Weeks

[Nathanwhit1]

When the girl friend she’s bored at home so I say u have no time to be bored when there’s a truck to get done. 

[mrsmackpaul]

3 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

The main reason for 4 six volts, was at that time there were no 12 volt batteries with enough cranking amps to start a big bore diesel.  It had to do with plate construction techniques. You need between 1600 to over 2000 cranking amps @ 12 volt (1/2 that at 24 volt) to start a big diesel.

 It wasn't until new construction methods made thin plates (and therefor more plates in the same container) that allowed for the 900-1000 cranking amp 12 volt batteries. Gp 31

As to series vs parallel, it makes no difference, all batteries are made up of 2.2 volt cells in series. paralleling just makes the plate area bigger. Inside each cell in the single battery are multiple plates all in parallel to make more surface area.  So a single battery is made up of cells with both series and parallel connections.

anything in series is limited to its weakest link, so a bad cell or connection at one battery takes the whole string down. If the total area of cells are spread among differing cell containers (batteries) then one cell bad will take that series string out but another series path still remains.

4 twelve volts in parallel, have 4 sets of parallel connection for 12 volt start. 4 six volts for 24 volt start has 8 series connections, so any one of them is bad and you have no cranking. In the 12 volt parallel, and one bad connection reduces the cranking amps by 1/4.

No one system is better than the other, all do a good job, the one with more connections need more maintenance to keep it working correctly. 

High amp connections are harder to maintain than lower amp connections. Which is why 24 cranking was used for many years, and is still used in many applications.

 It is why I like the Maxwell, it reduces the number of connections, and if a 24 volt unit is used, the current is low as well when compared to 12 volt cranking. It has only 4 high current connections 2 at the starter and 2 at the unit itself.

 

That's only talking about starting 

When it comes to charging a series  system, is better without a doubt

Every cell is charged equally 

In a parrallel system this is not the case at all

The battery and it's cells that have highest charge are charged first

That battery with the least amount of charge may never be charged at all

Or even a dirty battery terminal prevents a parrallel system from charging one section of the circuit 

Understanding what happens in battery charging and discharging is quite technical and something most auto electricians don't understand. These things can not be just Googled, or old mate up the road has said, or it always has worked fine for me like this 

 

Paul

[Geoff Weeks]

1 hour ago, mrsmackpaul said:

That's only talking about starting 

When it comes to charging a series  system, is better without a doubt

Every cell is charged equally 

In a parrallel system this is not the case at all

The battery and it's cells that have highest charge are charged first

That battery with the least amount of charge may never be charged at all

Or even a dirty battery terminal prevents a parrallel system from charging one section of the circuit 

Understanding what happens in battery charging and discharging is quite technical and something most auto electricians don't understand. These things can not be just Googled, or old mate up the road has said, or it always has worked fine for me like this 

 

Paul

No, not the case in charging either. Othewise you could just pull 12 volts off the middle of a 24 volt stack. In a series stack the weakest link controls the stack, charging or discharging. So loading one battery in a series string and trying to recharge through the whole string will fail, the unloaded battery will over charge and the loaded batter will undercharge. Any current to one in a series string must pass through all. That is not the case in a parallel, where a common voltage is applied to all, and internal resistance will determine the current though each.

As I said, all battery systems in trucks have both series and parallel connections.

When there is one dead cell in a battery, the battery is trash, you can't use the other cells. That is series in a nutshell.

Parallel connections, all in the string "see" the same load or input. Any loss of one does not effect the rest, you could cut one battery out of a string and the rest will continue on.

 Li battery packs have to be very tightly controlled  (as does the capacitor pack in a Maxwell starting system) to be sure all cells are brought up equally even though they are charged in series.

Failure in series connection will show itself in that no power gets through, failure in a parallel connection will show reduced current, and may be missed by those who don't know what to look for.

I understand battery systems, IUoU charging protocol and DC and AC circuits.

You can believe what you like, but it doesn't change the facts. Neither is "good" or "bad" they just are, what they are. Internally batteries have both series and parallel connections, Each cell has multiple pairs of plates, all the + plates are in parallel in that cell and all the negative plates are also in parallel, the cells them selves are in series with rest of the cells in the battery to make a 6 (3 cells) or 12 (6 cell) volt battery.

[mrsmackpaul]

I could just agree with you Geoff, but then we would both be wrong

Charging and disharging are very different operations

 

Paul

[Geoff Weeks]

Put a small motorcycle battery in series with a gp 31 and the current @24 volts will be limited to what the motorcycle battery can pass, Put them in parallel, and the current will be the sum of what the 31 and motorcycle battery can pass, but at 12 volts.

 Charging and discharging are the same. just which side is at a higher potential, determines whether current flow into or out of the battery.

Just as in the above discharge experiment, the charge to the gp 31 will be limited to what the motorcycle battery can pass when in series and when in parallel the charge current will be the sum of the current to each battery. Ohm's law doesn't change.

BTW, I could say the same about you and me.

[67RModel]

With regards to any old, antique, and technical motor vehicle forum I have ever been on the most hotly contested topics always seem to revolve around electrical and charging systems.

Its probably irrelevant to the truck in question but I'm fairly certain my 1967 R model originally had 2 6V batteries in series in each battery box to make 12V each. Then both battery boxes were connected in parallel to create enough amps at 12V to roll the starter over. It also had a 12V generator, which I still have. It was given to me by the previous owner. At some point in time he switched it to a 12V alternator and has 1 12V group 31 battery on each side now. If I'm not mistaken it was / still is positive ground. I'm not too sure as all the battery cables are black. I just make sure I hook new batteries up the same way the old ones came out. I've never been curious enough yet to wring it out and know for sure.

I know for sure my 1974 White Road Boss is 12V positive ground and is all original. From my understanding White Motors was a big proponent of positive ground.

[Geoff Weeks]

White was, and "White Western Stars" sold here also were (No surprise). I know Mack did for a while also. I have no opinion on the subject, they both work equally well.  In the old days you could flip-flop without changing much if anything. Once more "electronics" radios and the like, started showing up, then which polarity became more important.

Paul and my disagreement has nothing to due with polarity, but with series and parallel circuits

Edited February 10 by Geoff Weeks

[Joseph Cummings]

I personally think that we should have stayed with positive ground the way God and Henry Ford intended it. Not sure about the latest ignition systems, but point/coil ignition is positive ground on the Secondary (HV) side. There is a pencil test for spark polarity

 

Series connected lead acid cells will all charge at the same current. but after about 48 volts it gets hard to keep the specific gravity the same because of variations of each cell's internal resistance.

I usually go right to the Battery Bible

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/29718/29718-h/29718-h.htm

 

 

Edited February 10 by Joseph Cummings

[Geoff Weeks]

Fairly dated but still mostly accurate. Not many "bulb rectifiers" in use any more.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IUoU_battery_charging

Edited February 10 by Geoff Weeks

[mowerman]

i still say thier wasting more time on unnecessary electronics,,,,i used to enjoy doing tuneups on my older stuff,,,,,my 2014 mustang,,,,i cant even really see the engine,,,its all covered in plastic shieds everywhere,lol.bob

[67RModel]

I think there is more of an "on paper", theoretical justification for positive ground in automotive applications. In a positive ground system the sacrificial anode is the vehicle itself (chassis and bodywork). In a negatively grounded system the wires, connections, and electrical components become the sacrificial anode(s). So in theory a positively grounded vehicle would be more likely to be "rotted out". However, with that being said the amount of chassis/body metal lost due to electrical corrosion in a positive grounded system would be miniscule whereas the same amount (mass of metal lost) of corrosion in a negative grounded system could have much more effect on the vehicle due to corroded connections and components as well as dissolved wires. With modern insulation materials and much more robust connections the "problems" associated with negative ground have become a moot point, however, there is still is a better theoretical justification for positive ground. When you consider the electromotive series of metals negative ground is incorrect. If I'm not mistaken GM or Chevy strong armed the society of automotive engineers to make "their" negative ground system the standard as Ford was using positive ground on their stuff. As I said White Motors was still using positive ground at least into the mid 70s if not longer.

[Geoff Weeks]

1 hour ago, 67RModel said:

I think there is more of an "on paper", theoretical justification for positive ground in automotive applications. In a positive ground system the sacrificial anode is the vehicle itself (chassis and bodywork). In a negatively grounded system the wires, connections, and electrical components become the sacrificial anode(s). So in theory a positively grounded vehicle would be more likely to be "rotted out". However, with that being said the amount of chassis/body metal lost due to electrical corrosion in a positive grounded system would be miniscule whereas the same amount (mass of metal lost) of corrosion in a negative grounded system could have much more effect on the vehicle due to corroded connections and components as well as dissolved wires. With modern insulation materials and much more robust connections the "problems" associated with negative ground have become a moot point, however, there is still is a better theoretical justification for positive ground. When you consider the electromotive series of metals negative ground is incorrect. If I'm not mistaken GM or Chevy strong armed the society of automotive engineers to make "their" negative ground system the standard as Ford was using positive ground on their stuff. As I said White Motors was still using positive ground at least into the mid 70s if not longer.

I've heard that for years with no citation of where it is on paper.

Rust occurs between air around (or moisture in the ground if buried) and the item in question Galvanic protection works if you can provide a current between the two mediums. With a vehicle, the current would have to be between the air and the vehicle not its components.   If it were the electrical polarity that was the cause, it would be simple to end rust by keeping the electrical system isolated from the vehicle chassie. This is done in ships (2 wires to everything) and they still rust! In ships two wires are use BECAUSE they rust. imagine trying to chase a bad connection between plates of steel over the length of the ship.

Most mfg made the shift to negative ground when the switched from 6 volt to 12 volt. Some never were positive ground and some remained positive ground.

GM for a company that was supposed to have strong armed, produced components in both polarities, the whole time. When transistors came around it is cheaper/easier to make them in the NPN format than the PNP, so having a negative chassie meant you could use the surrounding metal as a heat sink,cheaper than if it was positive. That said Delco (a GM company) produced positive ground alternators, with the positive diodes grounded to the case. Since the beginning Delco produced regulators optimized for each polarity, So Delco "didn't get the memo" from GM!

It was semiconductors that really made the switch to negative ground ubiquitous. Once they started be common, positive grounds days were mostly over.

[67RModel]

18 hours ago, 67RModel said:

With regards to any old, antique, and technical motor vehicle forum I have ever been on the most hotly contested topics always seem to revolve around electrical and charging systems.

Hmmm...

[Geoff Weeks]

20 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

You can believe what you like, but it doesn't change the facts. Neither is "good" or "bad" they just are, what they are. Internally batteries have both series and parallel connections, Each cell has multiple pairs of plates, all the + plates are in parallel in that cell and all the negative plates are also in parallel, the cells them selves are in series with rest of the cells in the battery to make a 6 (3 cells) or 12 (6 cell) volt battery.

This sums up my take on it.

Edited February 11 by Geoff Weeks

[cruiseliner64]

The secret lives of batterys...who knew when I posted the question of what batterys our Cruiseliner came with it would lead to such an interesting debate.Very interesting indeed.Thanks guys... 

Paul

[Joey Mack]

So its 2 volts per cell ???  

[Geoff Weeks]

yes, or 2.2 volt per cell when fully charged.