Ultraliner MH613 Tales and Mysteries

[BigMackTruck]

I know you were expecting to see a cabover, I promise there is one, but I wanted to explain how I got here in the first place.

I started an LLC, bought this Mack for $5000 sight unseen, it was a catastrophe, it had 2 million miles on the odometer, I proceeded to put another $5000 into it in parts and do in all home repairs and jury rigging, I live in a small town, and I got permission from the local police to bomb down a specific back road and learn how to chug through the 13 speed. Then I went and got my CDL, then got the authority and insurance and full sent it with $5000 in my checking account, hopes and dreams, and 0 trucking experience with my Garmin and DAT load board. By some miracle, I survived and made money, great money even. Every single time I drove through a weigh station, I felt like I was trying to sneak passed a den of hyenas with steaks strapped to my body, knew it could be my last time as a CDL driver, the truck had a massive oil leak and more things wrong with it than I can remember, every single time I drove through a weigh station, I felt like I was trying to sneak passed a den of hyenas with steaks strapped to my body, knew it could be my last time as a CDL Independent trucker, but the brakes worked and so did all of the lights so I managed to slip through the cracks long enough to save up for a downpayment. I sold the Mack and bought an emissions truck, it was a huge mistake, I wish I had just poured money into Big Blue, but you live and you learn.

I started a post earlier this week asking for help identifying an engine, in this cabover, and I got the help I needed. Now I haven't stopped posting in there and I want to post it more in a proper setting, because this is going to go all over the place. I want it to be broader in scope and easier for the next guy to find information if they're looking for it.

I called the seller today, to inquire about the suspension on the MH I am looking at purchasing, just couldn't help myself, I wanted to know what I was working with. The Ultraliner, has a camelback suspension, and I was pretty excited to hear that, and I immediately jumped online to stuff my brain with knowledge and information about it. I typed "Camelback" into truckersreport.com. Everything I have read so far is discouraging. Every post called it the "infamous" "Worst ride of any truck i've ever driven" Spine snatcher, man killer, Rough Ride, Brick for a suspension, beat down of a lifetime. Discouraging all who dare to consider it to steer clear of these ambitions in favor of any other truck.

From what I have discovered so far, I don't feel like the truck is a good fit for me. The 5.02 rears, the 5 speed transmission, the camelback suspension, these are all factors that are vastly uncharted territory, and in conventional OTR trucking, it looks like a bad setup. I know I wont be going 70+ anymore, and I think that I can get used to that. How fast is this 5.02 with a 5 speed? Where is the sweet spot for mpg? What I do like, is that it is mated with an E7, but I can't find anything supporting the E7/T2050 combo being a good match, I can't find any early E7 information anywhere, (I did find the next closest thing, E Tech 350 engine spec graph) I need to know how did this combination work? Someone please tell me to hang it up or give me some encouraging words of affirmation that this thing is not going to beat me to death with the camelback and be an amalgamation of all Mack pride and joy. There were 16000 of these sold, where the heck have all gone too?

I read a mack magazine ad, speaking about the air ride on the cab, have any of you driven this Ultraliner camelback combo? 

You guys have been very helpful, and I want to thank you for your sharing all of your insight thus far. I want the cabover because I fantasize about the maneuverability of a cabover, combined with the legendary reliability of Mack powertrain, if this is a good combo, I have a very reliable rig, I know the E7 is good on fuel, what it lacks versus emissions MPG it makes up for with simplicity and reliability and no def related expenses. That Mack with 2 million miles is a testament to the durability of Mack, it has really stuck with me.

 

[BOBWhite]

I would look more into that 5.02 ratio because in my head there is no way! maybe with a 5 speed you need a ratio that low but man that sounds slow. Test driving the truck would be the best option but If not jack up and spin one of the wheels to find out for sure what the ratio is. 

The Ultraliners have airbag suspension for the cab so I really don't think the camelback would be all that bad. The guys on the forms most likely drove R models with the camelback suspension and they don't have any cab isolation. 

Lastly most of the cabovers left the country or were scrapped In the 90 or early 2000s. Seems like you'd see them daily but then they all vanished at once 

[JoeH]

On camelback, wheelbase and whether the rear cab mounts are rigid or air bags makes a difference in ride quality. Bobtailing with no trailer is always sketchy, regardless of suspension.  Rear end can bounce off the road and shift sideways a few inches or so.  Weight rating of the camelback makes a big difference.  If your MH is a tractor then it likely has 38k springs which shouldn't be too bad.  44k or 55k springs get much more brick-like.  Camelback suspension is fantastic off-road,  almost nothing better. Massive articulation over uneven surfaces while keeping full weight distribution on each wheel. Air ride can't compete there.

Usually a 5 speed transmission is bolted to an EM7 which is a Maxidyne fuel map. Massive power and, 90%+ torque from 1000rpms up to the governor.  This is normally a 300hp engine, if you have a 350hp that transmission is going to suck without more gears if you change the rear ratios.

[JoeH]

Mack E7 engine is a 12 liter engine so it's small relative to the bigger CAT and Cummins engines.  If you have lots of hills this will be worth consideration.

[JoeH]

Keep your eye out for an RD688ST.  This will be a thing from a 350 to a 460 HP truck, will have lots of gears to match the engine, it'll be pre emissions because they ended production in 2002 or so. An RD690ST will have that 300hp Maxidyne setup, with 5 to 7 gears.

Maxidynes are fantastic.  They're truly impressive engines for what they are.  The mechanical E7 engine is probably the best engine you can have durability-wise. E-techs are good too, but the EUP fuel system can do a fair amount of damage when they fail.  I caught mine last year just in time to save my camshaft.

Edited 23 hours ago by JoeH

[67RModel]

7 hours ago, BigMackTruck said:

Someone please tell me to hang it up or give me some encouraging words of affirmation that this thing is not going to beat me to death with the camelback and be an amalgamation of all Mack pride and joy.

Hang it up. If you expect to run it and generate revenue grossing 80,000 pounds all over the country then you will be dissatisfied and at a big disadvantage. A 2050 has a really big overdrive (0.6:1) and 5.02 rears would be typical of a "highway" specd truck of that vintage of Mack with that transmission. Assuming 11R22.5 drive tires that setup would get you about 72mph running on the 1800rpm governor. the slightest grade will have you dropping into 3rd gear and you will be getting your doors blown off by everything on the road. Times have changed. While certainly capable of reliably moving the weight, that power train is just not up to snuff for today's roads, weights, and everyone's impatience. It wouldn't be bad if maybe you never leave Nebraska. As for the camelback. My guess is most of the feed back on TheTruckersReport is from OTR guys who just like to complain about something. When hooked up to a fully loaded trailer you wont notice much difference in ride quality of air ride over the camelback. Even just pulling an empty trailer will smooth out the camelback's ride very nicely. Air ride has advantages such as the convenience it provides for drop and hook and probably lower maintenance costs. When the Camelback needs overhauled its a pretty big job. Nobody in their right mind would spec a brand new OTR tractor with camelback today but I wouldn't consider it a deal breaker on something used if everything else was ideal.

Edited 23 hours ago by 67RModel

[Mark T]

Why would you not want another CH or some form of one ?  They don't exactly command top dollar for a good used one, and they're out there. Especiallly after already having one. You may be surprised how they stack up against other trucks.  Dollar for dollar, they's hard to beat (literally)

[Geoff Weeks]

Made my living with 30-40 year old cabovers, a city tractor (Fleetstar) and a Marmon conventional. Times have changed as 67Rmodel has said.

Camelback itself wouldn't concern me in the slightest, the 5 speed would for the reasons mentioned. When I started, trucks pulled hills on the interstate at 25-35 mpg, the fleet trucks closer to 25, the O/O's closer to 35. Those days are gone!

Truck suspensions are NEVER going to ride like a car, no matter what someone claims. Ride comfort has a lot more to do with loading of the trailer that how the truck is sprung. Wheelbase also plays a roll, longer wheelbase the better it will ride.

I had (still in my barn) a short wheelbase Hendrickson beam tractor (about the equivalent of a camelback), and properly loaded it was fine and didn't even have an airride seat! Put a ton of miles in a 4 spring cabover, and it too road just fine.

Time to SLOW DOWN and weigh your choices carefully. As you now know, just keeping your insurance paid for and your paperwork up to date,  as a carrier, saps most of your time and money.

Jumping around, be it trucks or type of hauling or (for a company driver) employers, looking for the magic combo that put you in the clover, is only going to drain your bank account and break you.

As far as 70+ MPH, I almost never went that fast, 65, 68 yeah, but even there speed drinks fuel (your 2nd big expense). People paid me to get their stuff there safely and in reasonable time, the difference between 65 and 75-80 isn't enough time to even talk about, the fuel will more than eat up any "bonus" you get from being there 1st.

 Cabovers went away in North America when there ceased being a need for short cabs (when overall length laws went away). A whole lot of the used cabovers were exported to other parts of the world where they are still in demand. I was approached a few times at truckstops by people wanting to buy and export.

My advice as someone who "drove that road" is decide what type of hauling your LLC is going to concentrate on and look for a truck that meets that requirement well. Next best to to look for a truck that can do many things but is not so specialized.

 The key is to make a good decision in the 1st place and stick to it until/unless something changes radically in that sector of work. I my trucks were generallests, they weren't spec'd for one job but did most open deck work. That included heavy-haul up to 170k. While I could have been better off with a heavier spec'd truck in the heavy haul market, when there was a downturn, a heavy spec truck couldn't carry enough "general freight" to make money.

Lastly, your loyalty should be to your LLC not the brand truck you drive. "back in the day" there were no truely terrible trucks, and the ones that were "not so good" didn't last. Today it can be argued that none are really good, and you make the best of what is available.

Also insurance companies and some brokers, may balk at an older truck. I had to fight with one insurance company over having a '73 on the policy. 

None of my equipment was new enough to have to have E-logs, ABS, or even auto slacks, but I had little problem with DOT insp, other than the time they took on the side of the road. What problems I did have had nothing to do with the age of the equipment, things like a marker light that worked in the morning but quit before I got back home. No big deal. I ran this equipment until retirement after Covid (2020's).

Edited 21 hours ago by Geoff Weeks

[Geoff Weeks]

One last thing, HP is not king! Everything I did was done with less than 440hp, and moved  stuff with a 238 Detroit on the low end. When I called it quits a few years ago, I had a 425 cat, and two Cummins that one left the factory at 315 and was at that time putting out around 400, and another that left the factory at 400 and was putting out around 425. 

That made me among the lower end of the modern "fleet spec" of 2020, never bothered me a bit!

[Joseph Cummings]

11 hours ago, BOBWhite said:

Lastly most of the cabovers left the country or were scrapped In the 90 or early 2000s. Seems like you'd see them daily but then they all vanished at once 

We were cutting them like crazy then. Even fairly late models. Hardly anyone wanted them. Lots got made into conventional gliders. If you are doing local work and in and out of the truck all day, all that climbing gets hard on the body. Most of what people call "Cabovers" that are designed for city work are actually cab forward trucks with low entry

[BigMackTruck]

Alright, the writing is on the wall, I had a strong feeling before I posted this, and now you guys helped me confirm my suspicions. Thanks for not selling me no fairy tales at least, this was concise and to the point. The dream is over. That specific driveline wont work. I am not trying to get rich trucking, but I don't need to be taking losses just to look cool, and let's be real here, no one looks cool going 35 mph up a hill. At least not no more they don't, so moving onto the next best thing.

On a sidenote, I made this thread about MH Ultraliners!

Let's talk about THIS specific truck, Marketplace - 1983 Mack Mack | Facebook our Mexican neighbors, south of our border take old trucks and they can do damn near anything, its like Lego over there! These are real masters of crafting and grafting. I even seen em cut the aero 2nd bunk portion off of a 90s freightliner and graft it onto the roof of a 70s cabover. If you can't see the link, this rig has a 13 speed and with an M11 powering the truck. I would like to play around with this idea, has anyone done something similar? 

And thanks for the advice.

[BigMackTruck]

10 hours ago, Mark T said:

Why would you not want another CH or some form of one ?  They don't exactly command top dollar for a good used one, and they're out there. Especiallly after already having one. You may be surprised how they stack up against other trucks.  Dollar for dollar, they's hard to beat (literally)

I had the hardest time getting pieces and parts for my Mack, the Mack dealership was very unhelpful, I dont think they make parts for the 1998-2003 Mack Vision, it was a unexpected thing, because that body style was in production for damn near 20 years, but in 2004 they made it wider and so nothing fits, the chrome bumper in the photo was from a 2011 and I made my own brackets by cutting up scrap steel I had laying around, I spent hours calling around and I was getting the last of their inventory at times, it made me feel like, if I am gonna go with an obsolete trucking platform, why not go with something bad ass, Ultraliner is the coolest truck for me, I love it. and the Acert engines had a scary reputation, so I didnt go into that territory, 10/10 would drive another 80" sleeper Mack truck if i could source parts with ease.

[Joseph Cummings]

53 minutes ago, BigMackTruck said:

Alright, the writing is on the wall, I had a strong feeling before I posted this, and now you guys helped me confirm my suspicions. Thanks for not selling me no fairy tales at least, this was concise and to the point. The dream is over. That specific driveline wont work. I am not trying to get rich trucking, but I don't need to be taking losses just to look cool, and let's be real here, no one looks cool going 35 mph up a hill. At least not no more they don't, so moving onto the next best thing.

On a sidenote, I made this thread about MH Ultraliners!

Let's talk about THIS specific truck, Marketplace - 1983 Mack Mack | Facebook our Mexican neighbors, south of our border take old trucks and they can do damn near anything, its like Lego over there! These are real masters of crafting and grafting. I even seen em cut the aero 2nd bunk portion off of a 90s freightliner and graft it onto the roof of a 70s cabover. If you can't see the link, this rig has a 13 speed and with an M11 powering the truck. I would like to play around with this idea, has anyone done something similar? 

And thanks for the advice.

It's a 41 year old cabover, repowered with a 30 year old M11, with paint and lots of shiny stuff bolted to it. It looks like problems. They only made the MH for about 8 years. There are not many left to rob for parts. They haven't made them in 34 years. Salvage yards don't save old cabover cabs, you are going to be searching some farmer's junk when you need anything. And who the hell did the M11 repower? Did they even have a clue as to what they were doing? And why a M11 and not an N14?

Why do you want a MH so bad? There are lots of better more plentiful trucks out there.

And if "looking cool" is any part of your business plan, you are going to mess up

[Geoff Weeks]

1 hour ago, BigMackTruck said:

 

 I am not trying to get rich trucking, but I don't need to be taking losses just to look cool, and let's be real here, no one looks cool going 35 mph up a hill. At least not no more they don't, so moving onto the next best thing.

 

. If you can't see the link, this rig has a 13 speed and with an M11 powering the truck. I would like to play around with this idea, has anyone done something similar? 

And thanks for the advice.

The company I was leased to back in the day had some M-11's that pulled some fairly heavy loads. As far as longevity doing that, I can not speak to.

Trucking has been a race to the bottom for a long time now. To succeed and prosper you need to keep a strong two eyes on the bottom line and looking "cool" doesn't even enter into it. I sat with a co worker when his nice "Pete stand up sleeper"was repossessed and drove him into bankrupsy. Take it from me, it is not a pleasant thing to watch.

I never gave a damn what I looked like pulling Butte (Homestake) Parley's or any other hard pull, and didn't give a hoot to how fast.

Your posts seam to have a lot to do with "how it looks", too many have lost it all putting looks above function.

I likely looked like "Fred Sanford" when my 6-71 powered Fleetstar was working a train de-rail and I had a 80' stretch trailer and damaged rail car on. It was summer and hot, and that 6-71 was screaming and dumping heat into the small cab. You know what? I got paid the same as the others with K900 and Large car Petes.  I could take that old Fleetstar down the right of way and not worry about messing it up.

The roof on the Fleetstar is about at the same height as the top of the steering wheel on my Marmon, I could take that old truck anywhere in Chicago and clear the low bridges. Function over form.

If you have a solid "horse" under you, and bunch of solid dependable freight, then you can worry about "bling" and what your ride looks like.

Back in the mid 90's I was pulling a boiler from greater Chicago to Ft Saskatchewan, AB. 315hp and a 9 spd  grossing 118K. Yeah it was a long slow trip and I got razzed a bit climbing Butte, but the razzing was shut down in a hurry when I told them the pay/mile! That trip paid for a 13spd upgrade, and a few more like it paid for 400+hp.

I WANT you to succeed, but to do so, you are going to need a shift in priorities.

[cruiseliner64]

A lot of wise words spoken here.The MH is a beautiful truck but like my Cruiseliner is really confined to the hobby truck status.Too hard to get parts for,one breakdown could leave it parked for weeks.I dont know the situation in the US but over here it would be impossible to get insurance to work a truck that old for business purposes......just my thoughts....

Paul

[BOBWhite]

We ran our MH for over 15 years on our farm and it's still running at my uncles. Sure we never had problems with it and the MH is still many favorite truck but by almost any standard it was a terrible and worn out truck. The cab suspension was "deleted" so it rode awful, the cab would fill with dust any time you took it on dirt roads (which was most of the time), No AC obviously, the engine had a horrible governor surge if it had no load on it, most of the aluminum cab part were rotted out, and lastly RATS EVERYWHERE. 

Lots of CH's still out there and similar prices to the MH's, I wouldn't necessarily be afraid of the later pre emissions etech motors either but best to learn how to work on em. Never seen an MH with an M11, didn't know they even came with electronic motors