Ultraliner MH613 Tales and Mysteries

[BigMackTruck]

On 3/26/2025 at 5:22 PM, Geoff Weeks said:

Ok, take a look at what you wrote:

your 2016 ate you alive, and parts were hard to find, but you want to jump backwards 20 years? Do you really expect parts for a 25-30 year old truck are going to be easier to find?

Another thing that may or may not play into it is where you are working and what you are hauling. If you EVER want to go into Calif, that will require a newer truck.

 Anything made much after '92 or '93 is going to be electronic and have parts and sensors that changed year to year and are likely very hard to find.

 I was running 30-40 year old trucks at a time when they were still all mechanical. I also (if I do say so myself) am very good at finding and scrounging old, obsolete parts. The only part I haven't been up to my elbows in, with the the older trucks is a Cat 3406 injection pump. Cummins, yep, built those myself, Detroit 2 stroke are even simpler. I was a mechanic long before I was a truck owner, and had/have many of the tools and more important, the knowledge to tackle every thing that can go wrong with the trucks I had. I could build my work-a-rounds for parts that couldn't be found, but more important, I knew where to find, and could have the parts ordered and on the way, while still on the road.

 I'll be honest, I have never tried to keep an early electronic engine running 30 years on, I worked on them when they came out, parts were easy to come by, and I never gave it a thought.

When I was buying my own, I stuck with mechanical engines. My Marmon was purchased BECAUSE it was the newest all mechanical engine I could get.

I fear that 25-30 year old electronics may be more difficult to find SOME parts for than even older engine that is mechanical.

It seams to me you would have the worse of both worlds, electronic parts that change about every year, and obsolete so parts aren't made either.

Anything over 10 years old, it is almost mandatory to have parts manuals. Being able to do an internet search for a part number is so much more productive than saying I need X for a 1999 xxx model.

I was fortunate, in that my years were still back when there were printed manuals. Dealers often purge there old stuff (which is likely where my manuals came from). Now everything is digital, and getting someone who has access to the data, to go look at it and tell you what you need, can be like pulling hairs.

Geoff, I know you're saying its a bad idea and all about the old trucks, but come one maaaan, they still run the N14, ISX and  60 series in the glider trucks until just recently when they became officially outlawed. I have a really good ability of sourcing parts and getting the solution to issues with internet research as well, Lets say I did go with it regardless, or if you were gonna do it, how would you go about it in todays era of trucks?

[BigMackTruck]

Facebook

For the sake of staying true to the MH613 namesake of the post, I present, a running Ultraliner for sale $3000. I guess I was overpaying possibly. Can't believe how cheap these go for, it blows my mind. You can't even buy a 2001 nissan altima/honda civic for that price!

[Joseph Cummings]

17 minutes ago, BigMackTruck said:

N14, ISX and  60 series

👍

[Joseph Cummings]

26 minutes ago, BigMackTruck said:

I wouldn't dream of running a 3406B

Yeah about 5. The 3406E was better. I ran a Cat 3406E and it was a great engine until it wasn't. Cat can be very expensive to fix

[Lmackattack]

I will add my .02

 

Mack camelback is a off road suspension. I never understood why mack kept pushing to sell it to all buyers use when most other truck builders pushed their buyers to air ride. Air ride is not just better for driver comfort but it also dont beat the truck to death either.

The E7 in my opinion is limited to a vocational engine by todays standards. they were reliable but once the E7 moved to electronic they were just gutless . thats probably why they were so reliable becase they were weak on power and thus seam to last longer.  sure they will do the job but just not as efficiently as a big bore cat or detroit can. "no replacement for displacement" 

The cab over parts will pretty much be a junk yard hunt so dont expect mack dealers to be of much use.

 

If you want a good solid nice truck look at years 2000-2007 Pete or KW. pre emission trucks with Cat 3406 or C13, C15 power. you pay more for a cat but I feel you get what you pay for. parts are still available for both truck and engines and you will be better off in most situations. I love my old macks but I dont think I would ever buy a newer mack. this is after company driving them and seeing how dated they are in the HP race and the difficulties it is to get some basic parts for them. When I drove a 2002 pete it was always a breeze to get parts from the pete dealer. not so much for a 2007 mack.

 

And someone asked about Gregg Hoffman and his MH. he is still driving it but it has a Cat in it now

I think Ray parked his MH and is driving for Walmart now for the Insurance.

 

Have a good one

 

[Geoff Weeks]

10 hours ago, BigMackTruck said:

Geoff, I know you're saying its a bad idea and all about the old trucks, but come one maaaan, they still run the N14, ISX and  60 series in the glider trucks until just recently when they became officially outlawed. I have a really good ability of sourcing parts and getting the solution to issues with internet research as well, Lets say I did go with it regardless, or if you were gonna do it, how would you go about it in todays era of trucks?

What I'm saying is : electronic parts go "obsolete" quicker than mechanical parts do. You admit to having trouble sourcing parts for a 2016. 

To answer your question and to address the statement about 3406B's. I would run what I had, now down to the Marmon, with a 3406B. I don't know who said they only get 5 mpg? but I got 6.5 loaded 80K running west. Big Cam 4 I had got 6.3 to 5.5 depending on season (better in warm than cold) and Big Cam 3 was 6.0 to 5.3.

It isn't just the engines I'm talking about, most mechanical parts for the electronic engines are readily available, but it is the whole truck that now runs on electronics. I had a co-worker scrap a (from my prospective) newer truck when the electronic dash went out and it would cost more to find a replacement in working condition then he felt the truck was worth.

Even if no component itself has failed, electronics have massive amounts of wiring, and that can be a real problem. Wiring problems are, always have been, and continue to be a problem on vehicles, and they don't age well. While repairing the fault is generally cheap and easy, finding the location of the fault can be maddeningly hard and time consuming. On a mechanical truck this can be a nuisance, on an electronically controlled one it can shut you down on the highway. 

True story, guy had a truck that would run fine, and then die going down the road, it took a few tows and much time in the shop (where it worked just fine). Eventually it was traced to a wiring harness that had got pinched in the oil filter at some point and the insulation had been damaged, causing corrosion in the wiring harness itself.  I don't know how many tows, and down time in the shop where they couldn't reproduce the problem.

By comparison, my Marmon with the 3406B will start, run  and pull down the road with no electricity what so ever, doesn't even need batteries. Only thing that would prevent you from doing so is the lack of turn signal and brake lights.

 Nothing wrong with any of the engines you mention, that is not the point I was making. Any of them are sound, but without there needed sensors, ecm and wiring they are dead in the water. Glider kits drive off the lot with all new wires, sensors and ECM. That is whole different deal than something 20 or 25 years old that has been exposed to de-icer for 25 seasons and all the things trucks go through in 25 year of working hard.

If I had to choose one of those to run I would say the 12.7 Series 60 would be my go to engine, one of the later versions where the few bugs had been worked out but before 2004 MY

The 3406B is a great mechanical engine and long lasting, but when fuel system repairs or "water in the basement' repairs are needed, they are much more expensive to repair than an 855 Cummins or an 8V92 Detroit.

One more from "on the road files": I was west of Chadron,Ne and there was a truck stopped in the middle of US 20 unable to move, His foot pedal had failed, and was unable to move the truck. Cheap, easy repair in the shop, but an expensive tow and down time to get there. Nothing I could do to help him even get out of the travel lane and into some "lay by". 

Not disputing electronic deliver better fuel mileage, they do.

Edited Friday at 01:39 PM by Geoff Weeks

[Joseph Cummings]

Looking around at the Truck Paper site I'm seeing insane prices for stuff that needs lots of work before you can put it in service. I really don't think anyone is paying those kind of numbers. Especially to use to haul general freight. The money just isn't there

[Joseph Cummings]

Be interesting to see what this one goes for

1992 FORD LTL9000 T/A DAYCAB VIN: 1FTYA90R8NVA29744 Odometer Reads: 284346 Engine: Cummins N14 Dual Fuel Tank SP: 13 Manual PS: Yes Axles: Tandem Susp: Air Front Wheels: Aluminum Rear Wheels: Aluminum Visor: Yes Notes: New batteries, turbo, brakes, and power steering pump, but no documents for work done, drums and wheel seals on 3 axles, like new tires. Stock # 84405

https://www.equipmentfacts.com/listing/upcoming-auctions/242705623/1992-ford-ltl9000-day-cab-trucks?gtmlt=1&_ga=2.127833037.117426335.1743117718-1288162443.1742961771

[mowerman]

yeah not too hard to look at  ,,,bob

[mowerman]

kind of a screwy color,,,would look better on a cougar..

[cruiseliner64]

7 hours ago, mowerman said:

kind of a screwy color,,,would look better on a cougar..

Mechanical or female cougar Bob???

Paul

[BigMackTruck]

12 hours ago, Geoff Weeks said:

What I'm saying is : electronic parts go "obsolete" quicker than mechanical parts do. You admit to having trouble sourcing parts for a 2016. 

To answer your question and to address the statement about 3406B's. I would run what I had, now down to the Marmon, with a 3406B. I don't know who said they only get 5 mpg? but I got 6.5 loaded 80K running west. Big Cam 4 I had got 6.3 to 5.5 depending on season (better in warm than cold) and Big Cam 3 was 6.0 to 5.3.

It isn't just the engines I'm talking about, most mechanical parts for the electronic engines are readily available, but it is the whole truck that now runs on electronics. I had a co-worker scrap a (from my prospective) newer truck when the electronic dash went out and it would cost more to find a replacement in working condition then he felt the truck was worth.

Even if no component itself has failed, electronics have massive amounts of wiring, and that can be a real problem. Wiring problems are, always have been, and continue to be a problem on vehicles, and they don't age well. While repairing the fault is generally cheap and easy, finding the location of the fault can be maddeningly hard and time consuming. On a mechanical truck this can be a nuisance, on an electronically controlled one it can shut you down on the highway. 

True story, guy had a truck that would run fine, and then die going down the road, it took a few tows and much time in the shop (where it worked just fine). Eventually it was traced to a wiring harness that had got pinched in the oil filter at some point and the insulation had been damaged, causing corrosion in the wiring harness itself.  I don't know how many tows, and down time in the shop where they couldn't reproduce the problem.

By comparison, my Marmon with the 3406B will start, run  and pull down the road with no electricity what so ever, doesn't even need batteries. Only thing that would prevent you from doing so is the lack of turn signal and brake lights.

 Nothing wrong with any of the engines you mention, that is not the point I was making. Any of them are sound, but without there needed sensors, ecm and wiring they are dead in the water. Glider kits drive off the lot with all new wires, sensors and ECM. That is whole different deal than something 20 or 25 years old that has been exposed to de-icer for 25 seasons and all the things trucks go through in 25 year of working hard.

If I had to choose one of those to run I would say the 12.7 Series 60 would be my go to engine, one of the later versions where the few bugs had been worked out but before 2004 MY

The 3406B is a great mechanical engine and long lasting, but when fuel system repairs or "water in the basement' repairs are needed, they are much more expensive to repair than an 855 Cummins or an 8V92 Detroit.

One more from "on the road files": I was west of Chadron,Ne and there was a truck stopped in the middle of US 20 unable to move, His foot pedal had failed, and was unable to move the truck. Cheap, easy repair in the shop, but an expensive tow and down time to get there. Nothing I could do to help him even get out of the travel lane and into some "lay by". 

Not disputing electronic deliver better fuel mileage, they do.

What kind of throttle discipline do you have, what speed are you driving to achieve this 6.5mpg? regardless, 6.5 mpg with 80k is impressive, i had an isx15 and I was getting that MPG out west on I40 Memphis to Los Angeles, I drove like I had an egg under my foot, the truck would not give me good MPG, I think it was the 10 speed and 2.64 rears, I could squeeze out some serious MPGs if I was loaded light, hit 9mpg a couple times and I was super happy about it. Regardless, I am hearing you out with this mechanical idea. It seems crazy, but it also sounds extremely reasonable considering everything is getting old that has pre 2004 electronics. I would need some advice if I were to go that route, what kind of setup would you recommend? I am thinking big cam was king as far as cost of ownership goes, repairs fuel efficiency and reliability. If I could do 6mpg on average, I would be alright. That would certainly make up for the yearly 20,000 repair bill on the emissions system with the tow and loss of profits from downtime.

[Joseph Cummings]

2 hours ago, cruiseliner64 said:

Mechanical or female cougar Bob???

Paul

I like a cougars blonde with some kind of animal print something like this

Reminds me of back in the day before they were all lefty lunatics, or maybe I just didn't know. Good either way I guess

[cruiseliner64]

4 hours ago, Joseph Cummings said:

I like a cougars blonde with some kind of animal print something like this

Reminds me of back in the day before they were all lefty lunatics, or maybe I just didn't know. Good either way I guess

Im with you on that one🤣

Paul

[Geoff Weeks]

11 hours ago, BigMackTruck said:

What kind of throttle discipline do you have, what speed are you driving to achieve this 6.5mpg? regardless, 6.5 mpg with 80k is impressive, i had an isx15 and I was getting that MPG out west on I40 Memphis to Los Angeles, I drove like I had an egg under my foot, the truck would not give me good MPG, I think it was the 10 speed and 2.64 rears, I could squeeze out some serious MPGs if I was loaded light, hit 9mpg a couple times and I was super happy about it. Regardless, I am hearing you out with this mechanical idea. It seems crazy, but it also sounds extremely reasonable considering everything is getting old that has pre 2004 electronics. I would need some advice if I were to go that route, what kind of setup would you recommend? I am thinking big cam was king as far as cost of ownership goes, repairs fuel efficiency and reliability. If I could do 6mpg on average, I would be alright. That would certainly make up for the yearly 20,000 repair bill on the emissions system with the tow and loss of profits from downtime.

Didn't go above 65 mph, and didn't idle!  My truck with the 3406 had RTO14615 trans and came from the factory with 3.90's on 20" rubber, I re-ratio'd to 4.10/5.63 2 spds and gained between .75 and 1 MPG. It was Marmon's  areo cab, with no exposed marker lights (were molded into the visor) or air horns on the roof, no external air filter on the side of the cb.

I ran northern tier and almost never idled. If it was too hot, I tried to get a motel, most nights I slept with the windows open and fan blowing on me in the sleeper, in the cold I had an Espar coolant heater that kept me and the engine warm. I ran #2 when that was available, and "pump" fuel if blended fuel was all the truckstop had, I had a driver controlled fuel heater that I could turn on from the drivers seat and remained off unless needed.

I checked and maintained tire pressure, ran "rib" or "highway" tread all around (no lug tires). I took care of air leaks so the compressor didn't cycle all the time. 10 min between cycles while rolling down the interstate was my minimum acceptable time. I had my cabover  at one time would go 45 min between compressor cycles.

I pulled flat-bed, and some loads are more areodynamic than others. re-bar and plate steel got the best MPG. Equipment like AG and truck bodies were the hardest on air flow. 

Edited Saturday at 12:54 PM by Geoff Weeks

[BigMackTruck]

Thats really cool, you went to some pretty extraordinary lengths to get that economy. I have never heard of two speeds on the rears, was this something you would try 4.10 then 5.63 in order to determine which was better on fuel, or one ratio per axle say forward 4.10 rear 5.63? I run cats eyes pressure monitors on my rears, takes the guess work out of thumping the tires and saves me a little time to hit em with a pressure gauge, that gave me piece of mind when i was doing my pre-trips. I never permitted airleaks myself, but I couldnt say for sure what the air compressor sounds like when it is going down the road. I admire how you try to minimize any parasitic loss that is easily tenable, I bet theres a lot of money lost in trucking just from that alone overall in trucking. I have been looking into a solution to idling, I didn't idle unless the temperature got below freezing, or I was at risk of heat stroke because I didn't want to foul up my emissions system, but now that I am getting back into it, I want to get an APU, I feel like it would recoup the value with quality of life improvement, cost of maintenance and the value of fuel savings. I ran a harbor freight predator gas generator for a little while. I study the effects of rolling resistance and take preventative measures to save my pocketbook but sometimes it just doesn't pay off. I lost my ass on some drive tires, they were supposed to be good RR tires made in USA 500 a piece and I lost an MPG overall when I had em put on. They were slightly aggressive tread pattern because I do some occasional offroad but damn, going from 7.5 to 6.8 mpg was a lot to absorb with 4 dollar fuel, on top of the 5000 dollars I paid for the tires.

[BigMackTruck]

Does anyone have the Mack EM7 dynamometers for the VMAC years? I have been turning over some stones to find this information, all I can find is this, and in the past I have found some really flat torque graphs that were displaying less of a drop off, where as in both of these EM7 and EM6 have very similar characteristics with the torque falling off towards the higher end of the RPMs

em6300.pdf 

Edited Saturday at 07:51 PM by BigMackTruck
Accident

[Joey Mack]

If you need a graph for your engine, like the sample. Post the year and if its V-Mac, and I will post the chart...

[BigMackTruck]

I would like to see the graph for 1992 EM7/E7, please. I have been digging around, hunting stuff down, would be really nice if you could help me. Here is something i found for a bit newer engine, for the hell of it.

[Joey Mack]

https://photos.app.goo.gl/H2rQQPgctCDAMwgZ6

I only have a 1994 book. I bet this is what you want.

[BigMackTruck]

Thats nice, I like that, thank you. Do you by chance have also the EM7 chart in that book? I was trying to draw up comparison of what these engines offer as far as torque values and when it throws it on/how long it lasts for.

[Joey Mack]

In my book. EM-7 ends at 275HP.  300HP starts the E-7.  

[Geoff Weeks]

1 hour ago, BigMackTruck said:

Thats really cool, you went to some pretty extraordinary lengths to get that economy. I have never heard of two speeds on the rears, was this something you would try 4.10 then 5.63 in order to determine which was better on fuel, or one ratio per axle say forward 4.10 rear 5.63? I run cats eyes pressure monitors on my rears, takes the guess work out of thumping the tires and saves me a little time to hit em with a pressure gauge, that gave me piece of mind when i was doing my pre-trips. I never permitted airleaks myself, but I couldnt say for sure what the air compressor sounds like when it is going down the road. I admire how you try to minimize any parasitic loss that is easily tenable, I bet theres a lot of money lost in trucking just from that alone overall in trucking. I have been looking into a solution to idling, I didn't idle unless the temperature got below freezing, or I was at risk of heat stroke because I didn't want to foul up my emissions system, but now that I am getting back into it, I want to get an APU, I feel like it would recoup the value with quality of life improvement, cost of maintenance and the value of fuel savings. I ran a harbor freight predator gas generator for a little while. I study the effects of rolling resistance and take preventative measures to save my pocketbook but sometimes it just doesn't pay off. I lost my ass on some drive tires, they were supposed to be good RR tires made in USA 500 a piece and I lost an MPG overall when I had em put on. They were slightly aggressive tread pattern because I do some occasional offroad but damn, going from 7.5 to 6.8 mpg was a lot to absorb with 4 dollar fuel, on top of the 5000 dollars I paid for the tires.

Reducing parasitic loads wasn't my impetus, keeping moisture out of the air system was. 

I don't know how many drivers I've heard say "My truck is air tight, the pressure builds to 120 and sit there rock solid" while I hear there air drier blowing off every 20 sec!

I never had anything coming out of the "wet tank" when things were as they should be. Often the 1st indication there was a problem would be a little water out of the wet tank. Most often it was the check valve on the top of the drier element that had come apart.

My cabovers didn't idle until -25F, the Marmon with it much bigger sleeper needed more heat and I bought an air Espar I was going to add in addition to the coolant one already on the truck.

Back in the 90's I built a APU, and while it was nice, it had its drawbacks. 1st was the noise, in a cabover I was directly above the APU mounted behind the engine. It needed maintenance and was heavy. For cold, the Espars do great, but that left either idling or motel when it is hot.

As far as tires go, I never got into deep mud, but did get off road, including oil drilling sites, and my experience is: if rib tread will not get you through, lugs will not either, and your better off hanging some iron on the rear drives.

2 of my trucks were air start and one used a super-capacitor for cranking. Keeping moisture out of the air system, was good for air start, but where I really noticed it was in the trailer brakes system not freezing up in the cold, of course if you switch trailers a lot, you are at the mercy of the last person who pulled it.

[Geoff Weeks]

2 spd rears came about in kind of a round a bout way. I was looking to change the ratio, and didn't fancy paying what yards wanted to drop-outs ready to go, so was looking for "cores" to build. I had the rear-rear core in the single axle Fleetstar parts truck, needed to be re-ratio'd and the side gears changed to slip in the DS402 housing and shafts in the truck.

I found a front rear core for less money than a DS402 core (by far, less) and bought new ring and pinions and side gears and built them to DT402 spec's.

I didn't need the 2 spds but found I liked them alot.  Real nice climbing hills out west, from top (O/D) drop to direct, then downshift the rears and pull the hill in direct/ low range in the rear.

It also gave me so many ratios at the low end, I  would never have to "slip the clutch" under any load or condition.

The truck came with 3.90's which may have worked out on paper to give the best MPG, but where and how I was hauling, 4.10 gave better mileage and didn't require shifting as much.

It wasn't a big change on paper, but made a huge difference in practice.

[Truckcrazy]

On 3/27/2025 at 11:00 PM, BigMackTruck said:

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For the sake of staying true to the MH613 namesake of the post, I present, a running Ultraliner for sale $3000. I guess I was overpaying possibly. Can't believe how cheap these go for, it blows my mind. You can't even buy a 2001 nissan altima/honda civic for that price!

Great job. Run it if it will pass the DOT.