Cat Not Leaving The Engine Market Just Yet!

[ThaddeusW]

Well I knew this would happen, CAT is going to work with International to produce a MaXXForce branded C-15. With everyone going with propriety engines it looked grim for both CAT and Cummins. Cummins paired with Paccar to make the PX series engines which are re-badged Cummins engines. Makes sense for Paccar since making a whole engine line is quite costly and the ISB and ISL are proven designs. The IH-MAN Maxxforce 11 and 13 cant reach the 600+ HP the C-15 can. I wonder if they will use a different Emissions system or continue to use the design as-is. I wonder what color the it will be painted. IH will have a nice mix of engines in their lineup: IH, IH-MAN and IH-CAT.

This was posted on Hanks by a fellow who's friend works as an engineer for CAT:

Caterpillar, Navistar Working On 15-Liter Engine Venture

Jan 16, 2009 13:50:47 (ET)

CHICAGO (Dow Jones)--Caterpillar Inc. (CAT) plans to collaborate with Navistar International Corp. (NAV) on a new 15-liter engine for the truck maker's heavy-duty vehicles, according to sources familiar with the discussions.

Navistar has been seeking a supplier for the large engines amid moves by its existing suppliers - including Caterpillar - to leave the sector or switch emissions technology.

Caterpillar plans to supply the 15-liter engine under Navistar's MaxxForce brand by late 2010, according to the sources.

The heavy-equipment maker has said it plans to quit making engines for the U.S. truck market in 2010 to avoid the cost of complying with new domestic emissions standards. However, Caterpillar, Peoria, Ill., could license its existing large engine for Navistar to produce, or opt to continue making power trains under the Navistar brand.

Both companies declined to comment.

The joint venture, part of a broader truck alliance announced in mid-2008, would allow Navistar to build out its MaxxForce line of medium and heavy-duty engines without the expense of developing a 15-liter unit from scratch.

The pending deal would reduce Navistar's reliance on Cummins Inc. (CMI), which also supplies the truck maker with 15-liter engines.

Caterpillar's plan to exit the U.S. engine business and Cummins' decision to use a different emissions system from Navistar's sent executives from Navistar, Warrenville, Ill., searching for alternatives.

For Caterpillar, "This is a way to participate in the truck engine industry, but not have the exposure of being a direct supplier to it," said Eli Lustgarten, analyst with Ohio-based Longbow Research.

Daniel Ustian, Navistar's chairman and chief executive, told analysts Jan. 5 that a 15-liter engine solution will be unveiled in March during a trade show in Kentucky. "We'll have our own 15-liter," he said.

About a fifth of the 146,285 trucks Navistar built in 2008 were equipped with 15-liter engines, up from 16% in 2007, according to Power Systems Research, a Minnesota-based equipment data service.

Navistar has built more engines in-house in recent years to cut costs.

Caterpillar and Navistar have been working on an alliance since the summer to build Cat-branded construction trucks for the U.S. market beginning in 2010, as well as commercial trucks and engines for overseas markets.

Caterpillar's global dealer network and logistics operations would provide Navistar with the overseas distribution presence it now lacks.

[Bullheaded]

Yup, just read it in Todays Trucking (Lockwoods Product Watch). It says they won't say weather or not it will use Acert technology or something else. Hopefully it will perform better than the current Acerts. Also says International will likely drop Cummins after 2010.

You kinda had to know something was going to happen. Seemed funny to be coming out with a Cat truck with no Cat engine involvment.

Just like with the auto industry, you can't be brand loyal anymore, because you don't know who owns who or is partnered with who anymore. My head hurts.

[Jocko]

your right bullhead

[Bullheaded]

Sweet looking Autocar Jocko

[Jocko]

which one thanks though

[ThaddeusW]

Yup, just read it in Todays Trucking (Lockwoods Product Watch). It says they won't say weather or not it will use Acert technology or something else. Hopefully it will perform better than the current Acerts. Also says International will likely drop Cummins after 2010.

You kinda had to know something was going to happen. Seemed funny to be coming out with a Cat truck with no Cat engine involvment.

Just like with the auto industry, you can't be brand loyal anymore, because you don't know who owns who or is partnered with who anymore. My head hurts.

IH did ALLOT of engineering on the MAN D20, its totally different than the MAN design. CAT blew it with ACERT, too heavy and not very well proven. Even the MAXXforce uses a twin turbo setup but has air-water intercoolers after each turbo. That means there is no front mounted air-air intercooler! The idea is to manage engine heat with a larger radiator and provide a way to help cold starting and provide rapid engine warm up. Interesting stuff. Would be nice to see some of this tech applied to the C15 (or is that the 3406) block. And when 2010 rolls around, IH will be good and ready.

[Bullheaded]

I just tried to upload a tiny pic of the new Maxxforce/Cat, but it won't let me. says the file is too big. Anyway just got it in an email update from today's trucking, so maybe it's on their web site. Looks exactly like a C15 twin turbo painted grey and black with a little bit different valve cover and some new "pollusion" stuff on it.

[ThaddeusW]

I just tried to upload a tiny pic of the new Maxxforce/Cat, but it won't let me. says the file is too big. Anyway just got it in an email update from today's trucking, so maybe it's on their web site. Looks exactly like a C15 twin turbo painted grey and black with a little bit different valve cover and some new "pollusion" stuff on it.

I believe you mean this article: http://www.todaystrucking.com/news.cfm?intDocID=21114

Interesting picture! IH is going to avoid SCR and since they are backed by MAN They will pull it off. Rudolph Diesel invented his engine while working at MAN, if anyone knows diesel its MAN.

[Bullheaded]

Yes, have you seen their (MAN's) D28 V8? 680 horsepower at 1900 rpm and 3000 Nm of torque! (can't remember how to convert, but that's a lot of torque!) I wish I could get one of their TGX cabovers here in North America. Really nice truck. Even has a hydraulic front drive.

Interesting to note (makes you wonder why International needs Cat) that the Int. Maxxforce 13 tops out at 475 h.p. yet the MAN version D26 has ratings of 480 and 540 h.p. And they all meet Euro 5 emmissions. Would have been nice to have a 540 Maxxforce in my Paystar (the V8 would be nicer!)

After looking at the TGX brochure, funny to see all the other little details International picked up from them. Like that new stratoflex mattress in the new Lonestar. Same bed spring system MAN has been using. International is also using the same seats now also (I know I'll spell this wrong) Isringhauser's.

Interesting fact Thaddeus W...I didn't know Rudolf Diesel was at MAN when he invented the Diesel.

[ThaddeusW]

Yes, have you seen their (MAN's) D28 V8? 680 horsepower at 1900 rpm and 3000 Nm of torque! (can't remember how to convert, but that's a lot of torque!) I wish I could get one of their TGX cabovers here in North America. Really nice truck. Even has a hydraulic front drive.

Interesting to note (makes you wonder why International needs Cat) that the Int. Maxxforce 13 tops out at 475 h.p. yet the MAN version D26 has ratings of 480 and 540 h.p. And they all meet Euro 5 emmissions. Would have been nice to have a 540 Maxxforce in my Paystar (the V8 would be nicer!)

After looking at the TGX brochure, funny to see all the other little details International picked up from them. Like that new stratoflex mattress in the new Lonestar. Same bed spring system MAN has been using. International is also using the same seats now also (I know I'll spell this wrong) Isringhauser's.

Interesting fact Thaddeus W...I didn't know Rudolf Diesel was at MAN when he invented the Diesel.

3000Nm (newton meters) is 2212 ft/lbs. Just type "3000 newton meters in foot pounds" (without the quotes) into google. You can do many other conversions as well.

The European truck makers have ALLOT of interesting and cool truck tech, in fact MAN calls it Trucknology. The MAN Hydrodrive hydrostatic front axle was developed by Poclain Hydraulics and MAN is the first to bring it to market. Poclain is bringing the Addidrive system to the USA using a Dana 12-20K front axles and Bendix s-cam drum or air disc brakes. It uses a PTO hydraulic pump for power so it can be fitted to any truck, hopefully Mack makes it an option.

On highway planetary drive axles are another thing that they have over there but we only have in very limited form. Meritor is offering planetary drive axles specifically tailored for the US market using standard brake parts. Pair those with addidrive and your (almost)never going to get stuck at a job site again.

ISRI (Isringhausen) Seats are actually standard in Australian Macks last time I checked. They are real comfortable and have a dozen or so adjustments.

[HK Trucking]

It uses a PTO hydraulic pump for power so it can be fitted to any truck, hopefully Mack makes it an option.

V*lv* will never let that happen.

[EM6285]

WELL THEY SHOULD CALL IT MAXXIPILLAR

THANKS CATERPILLAR!!!!!

AND NOW FORR THE "CAT" IDENTITY CRISIS....

COMPLETE NAME IS CATERPILLAR IN REFERENCE TO THAT SLIMMY WORM THAT CLIMBS EVERY WALL.

BUT THEY SHORTEN IT TO "CAT" IN REFERENCE TO FELINES.

NICE KITY....

SO WILL THE MAXXIPILLAR SPORT SCR OR ADVANCED EGR ?????

ONCE AGAIN CATERPILLAR (CAT) IS GIVING UP TO EPA'S RESTRICTIONS

[ThaddeusW]

SO WILL THE MAXXIPILLAR SPORT SCR OR ADVANCED EGR ?????

MAN and International are working on advanced EGR. MAN and IH do not have any publicly announced plans for SCR as of yet. But Euro 6(2012)/EPA 2010 could change that.

ONCE AGAIN CATERPILLAR (CAT) IS GIVING UP TO EPA'S RESTRICTIONS

And how can they resist? They were fined millions for not complying with the 2002 regulations because ACERT took too long to implement. No body has a choice, once its law you have no choice but to comply or face serious fines that could put you out of business. CAT, Cummins, Detroit, Mack etc. have no say as to what emission they want to follow, the EPA says jump and they say how high.

My take? Screw any emissions higher then EPA 2007. 2007 has stuck us with a bulky DPF and all the headaches that go along with it. Now we will have to add an SCR system on top of the DPF and EGR system. Just wait till the fun starts when DPF's clog, SCR injection nozzles clog, running out of DEF and setting the truck in limp home mode with no gas station or DEF in sight. It will be fun times for sure.

Oh and California CARB board members should all be forced to only make money with pre 2007 trucks in their own state. Good luck morons. And wait until those bastards infect other states with that panzy post 2007 emissions only laws. Then we can all have fun updating our trucks with DPF's and most likely have to upgrade to new engines just to keep em running. F#%@ you!

Instead of making BS feel good laws to screw the working class (who pay most of the taxes) they should instead help our economy by investing in alternative fuels and power programs to help the environment.