Are Mack Granites All That?

[BobsLandscaping]

I've been looking for a heavy duty landscaping truck. Something that can tow a heavy skidsteer, CTL, and a excavator in the 9 ton range. Currently I use a Isuzu NQR and have my heavy equipment delivered. This works, but it adds needless complexity to the logistics of moving my stuff from one job site to the next jobsite. Right now I can haul about 3 yards of material in the back of my NQR and dump it. When I need more for a large job I have it delivered. Currently I have nothing that can move large quantities of pavers, retaining wall blocks, or large orders of synthetic decking material. I have to have all that delivered, and frankly it's hard to get on time delivery. Last season I could have completed more jobs if I had been able to move my own material.

I'm looking at dump trucks that can tow a 26,000lb GVW trailer with air brakes. A large tilt deck trailer that can move 19,000lbs of equipment or pallets of material will work nicely with a dumpbody.

Currently the truck I really like is the Nissan UD 3300 (33,000lbs GVW) with a Pioneer 4x4 system. My Isuzu and Toyota Tundra have been super (216,000 trouble free miles on the NQR, 125,000 trouble free miles on the Tundra) so I know the Japanese can build a stout work truck. The other thing I like about the UD is that with a dump body and 4x4 it only weighs around 14,000lbs due to it's cab over design. It also has a very short wheelbase making it maneuverable, good visibility, and it's just a nice truck all around. The drawback is that the dealer is 800 miles away in California. That's the closest dealer to Idaho. So the warranty basically means jack. For an $80,000+ truck that's a substantial gamble. The other drawback is that my local truck shop as never even heard of UD, let alone seen or worked on one. I don't think NAPA will carry parts for it either. All trucks break eventually, someday my Toyota or Isuzu will wind up in the shop. However it's a lot cheaper to drag my Isuzu 200 miles to Missoula than an 800 mile tow to Cali if dealer level diagnstics are required.

Despite the fact that I really like the UD I had to check out other options. The Mack Granite in a 6x6 dump configuration really stood out. We have some gnarly winters up here and for months at a time my two wheel drive Isuzu can't leave the driveway. That's why I'm looking at 4x4 or 6x6 trucks. I also do a little plowing in the winter. However a reasonably well equipped Granite 6x6 will cost almost $100,000 more than a UD.

One of the benefits of owning a Mack would be that the dealer is only 75 miles away. A relatively cheap tow in the event dealer level service is required.

However a Mack Granite will cost 40% more to insure than a UD and with a tandem axle configuration I have an extra 4 tires to replace and an extra axle to service. Obviously I'll be able to tow a heavier trailer so as my business grows I'll get more capacity without having to purchase a larger truck. I can grow more with a Granite.

I'm having a really hard time justifying near $200,000 for a truck though. My dealers salesman is not the sharpest tool in the shed, he kept calling the UD "Jap junk", probably not the smartest thing to say to a guy driving a Tundra with a Japanese mom.

Anyway I've been digging around here and it seems this is the place to ask questions and get straight answers.

What will my projected annual operating costs be assuming 12,000 miles annually?

What kind of fuel mileage can I get? The UD 4x4 gets around 16mpg, I'm assuming a Granite gets around 10?

What tires should I spec for the best compromise between traction and longevity?

Assuming I keep the truck for 10 years what can I expect to get for it when I go to sell it? Is the Granite well built enough to go past 10 years? With the low mileage I'll be using the truck for can I keep it for a long time? Is it a "disposable truck" like the Freightliners or Internationals I looked at? Those two makes didn't impress me at all with ft and finish. Peterbilt and Kenworth were better, but they don't offer trucks with a powered front axle.

What are some common wear items that I can expect to replace and at what mileages/age do they typically wear out?

The Granite is available with more horsepower, rear end, and transmission choices than the UD. What are the best specs as far as compromising between performance and economy in mountainous (Rocky Mountain foothills type terrain) areas?

How maneuverable is a Granite in real world conditions? Things like U-turns, backing up driveways, visibilty, etc.

Is there a way to spec a Granite so that a powered front axle is unnecessary in snow and ice? That would reduce the purchase cost by quite a bit.

I do like the looks of the Granite, but I need more info so I can make an informed decision. The only other truck out there that I like is the Mitsubishe Fuso FG, but it's 14,000lbs GVW. Not nearly enough truck.

For any Granite owners out there, how did you justify the cost to your bottom line? The Granite is considerable more expensive than other trucks.

[tylerstanley]

I have only comments on the fuel mileage, and your snow traction.

Fuel- Don't think even close to double digits..... your looking at closer to 5-6 mpg at best with a Granite.

Snow- My view on a front axle is they are great in mud (we have them on our terex mixers) but for snow, if you are loaded, and have a power divider and locking diffs, then I say you could make it through anything you will find on the road. I would say, waste of money.

If you are looking at this small truck, and then a granite........ that is a HUGE jump, but if you need to make it, then I would say this is the best truck for the job. Operating cost will be way higher, and breakdowns will be too. Other people can chime in with what they think on your other questions, but thats the best I can do for you.

[BobsLandscaping]

Yeah, it's definetely a huge jump. I can tag the UD to 60,000lbs with a trailer (GCWR), I think I can tag a Granite all the way to 80,000lbs (GCWR).

So having 2 rear axles (tandems) is enough to get me through snow and ice without having a powered front axle? I generally stay out of the mud, that means I'm tearing up a customers lawn. It's best to stay on pavement, less sod to replace.

The man reason I'm looking at buying my own truck is I'm tired of having to run my business around truck availability. Few things are as frustrating as being ready to start a job and getting the call that I've been bumped for beter paying (oversize permit) loads and it will be a few days before my "compact" equipment is trucked to my jobsite. I'd rather truck it myself and pocket the mobilization fee I charge. My equipment is just outside of what can be safely and legally moved with a 1 ton, but well under the more lucrative oversize loads. Hence I get bumped at the last minute for big loads all too often.

Equally frustrating is ordering XXX yards of material and waiting hours for it to show up. In the last 4 years I've lost enough money in waiting for trucks to pay for a UD easily.

I'm not bashing truckers, I understand stuff happens and it's just business. It's time for me to make the move into mobilizing my own equipment.

[David]

Buy the Mack RM 4x4 on Ebay. Invest $$ in restoring it and have something you can use forever and repair yourself. You won't need to take it 800 miles to have it checked out on a computer for a $20 part to be replaced.

[fjh]

Yeah, it's definetely a huge jump. I can tag the UD to 60,000lbs with a trailer (GCWR), I think I can tag a Granite all the way to 80,000lbs (GCWR).

So having 2 rear axles (tandems) is enough to get me through snow and ice without having a powered front axle? I generally stay out of the mud, that means I'm tearing up a customers lawn. It's best to stay on pavement, less sod to replace.

The man reason I'm looking at buying my own truck is I'm tired of having to run my business around truck availability. Few things are as frustrating as being ready to start a job and getting the call that I've been bumped for beter paying (oversize permit) loads and it will be a few days before my "compact" equipment is trucked to my jobsite. I'd rather truck it myself and pocket the mobilization fee I charge. My equipment is just outside of what can be safely and legally moved with a 1 ton, but well under the more lucrative oversize loads. Hence I get bumped at the last minute for big loads all too often.

Equally frustrating is ordering XXX yards of material and waiting hours for it to show up. In the last 4 years I've lost enough money in waiting for trucks to pay for a UD easily.

I'm not bashing truckers, I understand stuff happens and it's just business. It's time for me to make the move into mobilizing my own equipment.

If I was in your shoes I'd be looking for a single axle dump on air ! Likly a Binder DT466 cheap and dependable .Or a 350 mack single axle ch with a dump body!either would be cheap on fuel and low maintance.

[ThaddeusW]

This is why Mack should bring the Metroliner here.

The Mack might be a bit on the expensive side but a VERY dependable truck. For your first big truck save a bit of money and go with an International. It wont outlive a Mack but it sure will bring you a decade or two of good service. How about an International Durastar 4400 series or Workstar 7400/7500? One perk of the International is you can spec an extended cab that can seat five or a four door crew cab that can seat up to six. Great if your bringing in a crew to work on the site, everyone and everything comes in one vehicle. Just saw a tandem axle 4400 International with 4 coor cab and a large 18 foot custom dump body for roofing work. International makes their own engines for those trucks and they are very dependable.

DO NOT buy a Freightliner Business Class M2, they are pure crap. I have been in a few and the interior is probably more noisey than a 30 year old truck due to the cheap plastic interior parts vibrating appart. The international cabs are very quiet by comparison. If your looking at other brands, for an engine Cummins is the best way to go. Also peterbilt/Kenworth has imported the DAF CF. Low profile truck with 19.5 tires that can gorss out at 33,000 powered by a Cummins ISB rebranded as the PACCAR PX6. Bigger than your NPR without being too big.

So something like this might work out for you:

-International 4400 or 7400/7500

-Maxxforce DT engine or Maxxforce 9/10 engine. 300-340 HP, also spec the diamond logic engine brake. The little maxxforce engine brakes are designed by Jacobs and they are very strong (much stronger then an exhaust brake on a Cummins or CAT)

-Allison Automatic makes off road work a cinch. OR Fuller 8LL manual transmission if you want to go that route.

-46 Rears on spring walking beam or air walking beam. Dont bother with regular air suspension for off road work.

-14,600 front axle or maybe go 16000-20000 with floatational tires.

-Trailer air lines plumbed to the rear in case you want to upgrade to a bigger tag trailer.

IF you want to go with some extras that I list below it might be best to move to something bigger like a Mack Granite or the Internatioanl Workstar 7600 or Paystar. Go with at least 350HP w/engine brake and maybe a tag/pusher axle to get the gross weight up. If you buy a Mack with tandem axles ONLY SPEC CAMELBACK suspension. Nothing beats Camelback for off road work PERIOD. Only thing is Camel back is limited to Mack axles only.

Also here are some other things that can make your truck much more productive:

Look into getting a knucke boom crane mounted behind the cab so you can easily load/unload building materials. It can also serve as a traditional crane with a winch. You can pretty much handle any job with that and get material into some hard to reach places. Maybe make some side money as a small crane service. They come in a variety of sizes with a variety of winch, boom and jib options. Brands include: Hyab, PM, Heila and Effer. Very popular in Europe.

Instead of buying a dump body, look into getting a hook lift which will allow you to haul dumpsters, flat beds dump bodies or whatever your business needs. Think about it like this, With one truck you can deliver a flatbed full of blocks and unload the whole bed, blocks and all. Then go pickup your dump body and bring in a load of whatever it is you need. You could also haul equipment on a flatbed and unload the whole bed and just drive off. Unloading the bed to ground level makes unloading easy and safe for workers. You can leave bodies or containers at the work site and not tie up the truck. check out www.swaploader.com, they have a full range of hook lifts and help with body mounting.

As for all wheel drive, dont bother as it is expensive and adds allot of weight. If you are really worried about getting stuck look into Poclain Hyraulics Addidrive assist system. I dont know if its commercially available yet but it is essentially a hydraulic powered front axle that needs no fancy transfer case or front axle. They just modify a standard Dana front axle with their unique wheel motor hubs and fit a pto pump system to your transmission. Brakes are Bendix drum or disc for easy sourcing of brake parts. It is available on European MAN trucks as an alternative to a front driven axle. Expensive as a front driven axle but adds no height to the truck or unnecessary weight. www.poclain-hydraulics.com

And lastly you could also look into specing Meritor planetary hub reduction axles. Built for the weight concious North American market and use standard Meritor brake parts, no import stuff. They are built for on/off road use and mount standard 22.5 or 24.5 tires on Euro mount 335MM wheels (rims) that are readily available. Since most/all the reduction happens at the hub instead of the differential you get much better traction on soft ground and are said to reduce the chance of spinout by two thirds! They are available with ratios from 3.61 to 7.21. Not sure of their availibility as they were recently introduced but you can always ask truck makers via email as dealers are mostly ignorant of many truck options. They would rather sell you something sitting on their lot.

Hope this little list of suggestions helps.

[Gambi80]

I think the number 1 thing with a new truck to look at is dealer service. Buy as local as you can.

And as stated before...a tandem with lockers in the rear axles is as good as anything in the snow/off-road. No need to get front-end drive really unless you plan on climbing mountains, literally. As you stated, you plan on being on pavement mostly...carrying around all that extra weight just sucks the fuel.

Lastly, I've never heard anything good about a dump truck with air-ride. If you buy a Mack, opt for the camel back. And an automatic!

[usmcjimbo]

I would definitely stay away from any 4x4 or 6x6 trucks unless you absolutely need it. All the ready mix companies in Florida are getting out of the 6x6 configurations and going to 6x4 with tire inflation/traction systems. Weight and repair cost being the primary reasons. A 6x4 dump truck with full lockers and good quality chains will take you anywhere you need to plow snow

I agree with everything everybody has posted here, but why look at a brand new truck when there are hundreds of laste model Mack tandem axle dump trucks for sale, many of them Granites.

My company has 5 right now for sale - call me at 515-669-7675

[HK Trucking]

Bob, after reading your original post, I think a Granite tandem axle may be overkill at this point.

Mack doesn't currently offer a truck in the weight classification you seem to be seeking, but as Thad said, how about an International single axle with a 10 ft. dump box, heavy duty pintle hitch, and air & electric trailer brake hookups?

The company I've been working at for the past 2 1/2 years has one, here are some pics:

It has the IH DT466E engine.

We have the tailgate salt spreader on it also as you can see.

Nice little truck, we use it to pull the 20 ton tag trailer with air brakes, and it also has a receiver hitch and electric brake hookup for pulling the small bobcat trailer.

The box holds 7 cu. yards and we use it to deliver loads of topsoil to residential customers where a big truck just won't fit.

.

[BobsLandscaping]

I think a hooklift might be the way to go. Especially for mulch and topsoil jobs. If you've ever had 10 yards of mulch dumped in a driveway you know it leaves a big mess to clean up at the end of the day. With a hooklift I could get some dumpsters, fill them up with mulch, open the back doors and drive my machine in and scoop the material right out. At the end of the day shut the doors, lift the container and go. Plus if I got a 25 yard container I could buy 25 yards of mulch at a time for a discount and store it. Just need to tarp it to keep it dry. Same kind of deal for topsoil.

A yard of mulch weighs around 900lbs, a yard of topsoil weighs around 2,000lbs. What kind of truck would I be looking at that an haul a 25 yard container of mulch or topsoil legally? Are 25 yard dumpster containers available?

Can I still fit a conventional dumpbed to a hooklift? Like for spreading gravel? The kind where you can do a six inch spread, tilt the bed, and drive to spread it.

How exactly does a hooklift secure the body to the truck frame once it's lifted up? I haven't really seen one up close.

Can I get a chipper body for a hooklift? Like for holding wood chips after chipping up a tree?

What are some other bodies I can put on the back of a hooklift? How about enclosed containers I can store tools in at jobs as opposed to hauling trailers?

That hooklift idea is really growing on me. I like it.

[RowdyRebel]

I think a hooklift might be the way to go. Especially for mulch and topsoil jobs. If you've ever had 10 yards of mulch dumped in a driveway you know it leaves a big mess to clean up at the end of the day. With a hooklift I could get some dumpsters, fill them up with mulch, open the back doors and drive my machine in and scoop the material right out. At the end of the day shut the doors, lift the container and go. Plus if I got a 25 yard container I could buy 25 yards of mulch at a time for a discount and store it. Just need to tarp it to keep it dry. Same kind of deal for topsoil.

A yard of mulch weighs around 900lbs, a yard of topsoil weighs around 2,000lbs. What kind of truck would I be looking at that an haul a 25 yard container of mulch or topsoil legally? Are 25 yard dumpster containers available?

Can I still fit a conventional dumpbed to a hooklift? Like for spreading gravel? The kind where you can do a six inch spread, tilt the bed, and drive to spread it.

How exactly does a hooklift secure the body to the truck frame once it's lifted up? I haven't really seen one up close.

Can I get a chipper body for a hooklift? Like for holding wood chips after chipping up a tree?

What are some other bodies I can put on the back of a hooklift? How about enclosed containers I can store tools in at jobs as opposed to hauling trailers?

That hooklift idea is really growing on me. I like it.

You won't get 25 yards of either in less than a 39' dump trailer. Topsoil at 2000 pounds per yard is 50,000 pounds for 25 yards. That puts me right at the 80,000 pounds weight limit in my '01 CH with a 39' dump. A shorter trailer would require more axles to meet federal bridge law requirements.

I also just hauled a load of mulch out of Alabama on Friday...loaded nose to tail, side to side, floor to tarp, I was only able to get a hair over 12 tons in the trailer...which at 900 pounds per yard would figure to be a little more than 26.5 yards.

Dump trailers are not wise to spread with...unstable and likely to tip over if you try it.

Hate to say it, but you're going to have to compromise on something...